Sofiya Johnson was born in Kenya and raised in Mwanza, Tanzania, where her family owned a soda factory.  Her father and grandparents were born in Kenya, and her paternal great-grandfather arrived from India at ten years old. Her mother was born in Tanzania, and her maternal grandfather was a member of the Legislative Council representing the Indians in East Africa. Due to his status, the family were considered ‘honorary whites’ and allowed to mix in the segregated clubs. Their wealth was taken and redistributed under Julius Nyerere’s government, prompting her family to move abroad. She continued her education at an Oxford secretarial college and then worked for the BBC World Service, before moving to Wales with her husband in 1980.  This interview is over three separate audio recordings. Transcription was aided by Otter.ai.  

Recording 1: 'Interview with Sofiya Johnson by Farah Allibhai'

Tue, Jul 02, 2024 2:17PM • 1:05:47

SUMMARY KEYWORDS: live, colonial, remember, wales, tanzania, married, father, british, grandfather, grandmother, monza, life, nairobi, sister, cousins, year, kenya, parents, indians, people

SPEAKERS: Farah Allibhai, Sofiya Johnson

 Farah Allibhai  00:01Farah Allibhai recording Sophia Johnson on the 18th of April 2024. Sophia, can you introduce yourself, please? Sofiya Johnson  00:10My name is Sophia Johnson. I was born on the 14th of July 1956, in Nairobi, Kenya. Farah Allibhai  00:21You were born in East Africa. Can you tell me your memories of living there? Sofiya Johnson  00:25Sure. Even though I was born in Kenya, we were British East Africa then. And my family moved to Tanzania, Mwanza to start a business, or my grandfather did. And we had soda factories in Mwanza in Arusha. And we also owned some land, which we didn't quite rent to the local population, but let them farm their food there to sell to the market. So nothing was - there was no money to be made from that, but it was land. Farah Allibhai  01:05Can I ask you about how your family went from Kenya to Tanzania? Sofiya Johnson  01:13I think my grandfather decided he wanted to go to Mwanza to start a business. I can't recall it, because obviously, I wasn't there. But that... both my parents, my father, my grandmother, my grandfather, were all born in Kenya. But then the left to go to Tanzania. I don't know the reason why. Farah Allibhai  01:35But you were born in Kenya?  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiAnd so how old were you when you and your family left Kenya? Sofiya Johnson  01:40Oh, immediately. Well, my mother, I think was visiting from Mwanza. And, of course, I was born in Kenya. But then, you know, we were just East Africans. There was just a little permit to say you're a East African, there was no passport, per se. In that time, or if I remember.  Farah Allibhai  01:59So you could leave and go to one country there was a lot of fluidity in your movement? Sofiya Johnson  02:04Yes, at that time Farah Allibhai  02:05Do you know what your family did in Kenya, before moving to Mwanza? Sofiya Johnson  02:09They had the little factory, a soda factory. Farah AllibhaiIn Nairobi?  Sofiya JohnsonIn Nairobi, I believe. But I don't know. Nobody talks about that time anymore. You know, all I know, is my own personal recollection of Mwanza. The family didn't talk about any of our -  where we came from, what we did, what happened? All I know is that we were in Mwanza. And that was that. Farah Allibhai  02:31So does that mean that you don't have any historical knowledge of your ancestors, how your grandparents came to India – sorry, East Africa? Because that's very common with our community, nobody actually remembers. Sofiya Johnson  02:44Great, great grandfather was 10 when he came to East Africa. But that's all I know.  Farah AllibhaiGreat?  Sofiya JohnsonGreat, great. Farah Allibhai  02:54So you would have been fourth generation?  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah Allibhai  So that's a long established line in East Africa.  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah Allibhai  By that point?  Sofiya JohnsonYes. Sofiya Johnson  03:02I mean, we were Africans. We did never thought of ourselves as Indians. Because this was home. Home was never India. My mother was born in in Tanzania. Exactly. So we're all Africans, East Africans. And of course, things changed. Farah Allibhai  03:21So can you tell me some of the memories you have of Mwanza, then Sofiya Johnson  03:26It was a lovely, lovely town on the shores of Lake Victoria. Beautiful, very colonial. My grandfather was very big in the British colonial government.  Farah AllibhaiWhen you say big...  Sofiya JohnsonHe was a member of the Legislative Council, in the British government, representing the Indians in East Africa, in Africa, in Tanzania.  Farah Allibhai  03:51And so when you say it was very colonial Sofiya Johnson  03:54It’s a very colonial town you know, a lot of British there, I have no clue why. But you know, in those days, you were not, as Indian to Africans, you are not allowed to go into British facilities. If you know that, you know, you couldn't go into their clubs. You couldn't go into the Yacht clubs, into the golf clubs, not allowed. Farah Allibhai  04:12So there was segregation?  Sofiya JohnsonOf course, absolutely.  Farah AllibhaiBut was it segregation with whites only, were Indians and Africans mixing, are you able to go into each other's... Sofiya Johnson  04:25We could go into brown and in black communities but not in white. They were colonials until they left in 1960. And so even then, even after 1960, we still had the clubs where they allowed Indians in, but not Africans. Farah Allibhai  04:46Why do you think Indians were allowed in? Sofiya JohnsonBusiness people Farah AllibhaiOkay Sofiya Johnson  04:50And because my grandfather was in the government, we were kind of honorary whites. Now I was very young then so I don't remember. I remember going to dances at the club you know, my grandmother was entertaining these ladies with her beautiful silver and whatnot. I remember all that cutlery which came from Sheffield. I can't remember what it was. We only saved one piece after what happened in, after what happened in 1971. We had a beautiful home, huge home, family lived together. The soda factories were in town. Actually, I had a very privileged life, I must say. A very happy life. Farah Allibhai  05:41So you grew up in this big house?  Sofiya JohnsonYeah.  Farah AllibhaiWith this special status within that that community that gave you access and other privileges and to white people basically to white society. And you imported cutlery from the UK? Sofiya Johnson  05:56Yes and the crockery and you know. Farah Allibhai  05:58So that it was very much trying to be to the British style.  Sofiya JohnsonYes, yes.  Farah AllibhaiAnd did your grandmother wear her saris? Or would she have worn western? Sofiya JohnsonNo, western dress Farah AllibhaiSo would you describe it as a complete copy of the colonial culture?  Sofiya Johnson  06:17Yes, I would think so with my grandfather, certainly. After my grandfather died, she went back to wearing her long dresses in a sari, you know, on her head.  Farah Allibhai  06:25So it was because of your grandfather that your grandmother actually wore western clothes?  Sofiya Johnson  06:32Yes into that particular society ,of that world, which was totally different from our world, and then the African world. Farah Allibhai  06:41But it was enabling you to have a quality of life. Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiThat you wouldn't have had otherwise. If you had stayed in saris and Punjabis suits.  Sofiya Johnson  06:48Yes because we were encouraged. Can I say this? Farah AllibhaiOf course  Sofiya JohnsonBy the Agha Khan, the old Agha Khan, that where you go into whichever country you go, assimilate. Don't, you know, and start wearing western clothes. Because my grandfather was also president of the Ismaili council. So my grandmother started wearing dresses, then all the women followed her into wearing dresses. So not too short, modest dressing but no saris or anything - no. Farah Allibhai  07:21So did your grandmother, did you sense that your grandmother felt really quite comfortable being Western? Or was she always aware that she was never a Westerner? Sofiya Johnson  07:30I don't think she was in her heart. She was always Indian. But she was born in Kenya. I mean, she'd never been to India, in her life, either. So there was a culture, obviously that culture from India was brought into us, you know, to eat the food, to speak the language. It was important, but we were always kids in our family. We're always taught to speak English, have Western food, we will never allowed Indian food. It was totally different because it was a very strange household where we... there was a kid’s dining room, there was an adult dining room. I never - I think I went into the adult’s dining room once. And then my grandfather would hold all the sundowners on our terrace upstairs, where the people were invited. When Princess Margaret visited – sundowner.  When ___ came – sundowner. He came to our house. I've got pictures.  Farah Allibhai  08:28You have - your family hosted royalty?  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiThis colonial contact?  Sofiya JohnsonYeah.  Farah AllibhaiSo your grandfather's really, really high up  Sofiya Johnson  08:38He was awarded the MBE by the Queen, for services to the British Empire. Farah Allibhai  08:45So it was very necessary for you to fit in into the colonial system.  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiHow would you feel about that retrospectively? Sofiya Johnson  08:54Well, I never, I never thought that there were... there were snobbish. And you know, I've also lived in different countries now. And you see the English, I'm sorry to say this, when they're out there, they sort of develop this inverted snobbery. And you may be a... it's nothing but you think you know with the posh voices? I never, you know, I never actually thought of them as that I though well okay, skin’s different, so what? Farah Allibhai  09:21So the fact that your grandfather was part of this colonial system?  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiThat was causing a lot of inequality?  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiIn East Africa.  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiWhat do you have any thoughts or feelings about that having belonged to it and grown up with it? Sofiya Johnson  09:35Well, actually, I didn't belong in a way. When he died in 1962, he died, then things start changing.  Farah AllibhaiAnd how did they start changing? Sofiya Johnson  Because after the independence, the British were going and you know, we were there then. Not many British then, some who obviously working elsewhere. But you know, He used to have a beautiful colonial home in a place called Musoma. We used to go on holidays there. And every month of December we’d take the car and go all the way to Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania to the Serengeti and back to Mwanza. It was - that's what it was, it was an idyllic life in a way. And my father was lovely, he loved the adventure. But then things start changing. In 19... Nyerere became president, and he decided to adopt the Chinese socialist way of life where nothing belongs to you, everything belongs to the state.  Farah Allibhai  10:37So just before we talk about that, just so that I can grasp your life in the first 10 years of your life, I'm assuming, it was sundowners, it was long vacations.  Sofiya Johnson  10:50Long vacations. Sundowners obviously, we weren't allowed the kids, but we'd watch Farah Allibhai  10:54But the road trips and holidays. What about your schooling, was that private? Sofiya Johnson  11:00Oh no, no, we were at the Aga Khan School.  Farah Allibhai  And was the Aga Khan School mixed? Sofiya JohnsonYes, yes Farah Allibhai  11:07So that the educational system wasn’t elitist in that sense.  Sofiya JohnsonBut no Africans  Farah Allibhaino Africans Sofiya JohnsonOnly Indians. Farah AllibhaiOnly Indians? Sofiya JohnsonAt the Aga Khan School, yeah.  Farah AllibhaiSo only Ismailis? Sofiya JohnsonMhm Farah AllibhaiNo other? Sofiya Johnson  11:19Yeah other Hindus and other races, but no Africans. If I can remember, I don't think there were any Africans. Farah Allibhai  11:26Other religions, so that you could be Hindu, Sikh, Muslim. Sofiya Johnson  11:30Yeah we used to go to the Hindu temple, we’d go for Diwali, Holi. We used to go to the marriages. And it was very, very togetherness, you know. And it was a lovely life, in a way because there was no hassle.  Farah Allibhai  11:45What about your friendship group? Because you have this... grew up with these British affiliations Sofiya JohnsonYeah.  Farah AllibhaiWere you friends with those white colonial children or did you stay with the Asian?  Sofiya Johnson  11:57No we only met them in the clubs when we went swimming, or play tennis or that but no. But most of my friends, were Ismaili because it was a community. Community was the centre of heart. But our family was very aloof. People didn't like us very much, because they thought we were very uppity. So if we’d go to the movies, we’d have the first row of the cinema, that sort of thing, you know, kind of loyalist, so people were scared to come. In fact, people was scared to come and talk to us. And I said, why haven’t I got many friends, you know, because they were actually not happy to talk to us. They wouldn't come to the big house, they were scared I just wondered why. And then coming to the UK and meeting them again, they said, you know, we never came to you, because why, because it didn't feel right. So no, my friends were my cousins. We were a cousins group of three or four cousins, and that was our group. Farah Allibhai  12:56And so there was no mixing with Africans? Sofiya Johnson  13:00Not at that stage. And then in 1970, now at secondary school, in what you call my third year.  Farah AllibhaiWas that an Ismaili secondary school? Sofiya JohnsonNo it was called Mwanza secondary school so it was mixed.  Farah AllibhaiWhat, Whites, African and Asians? Sofiya JohnsonMost of the whites went to their own private school, there were a couple who came, but mainly Asians, Indians. And then the Africans came as well. So it was pretty mixed. But that was an interesting... that's when things really started changing, because they nationalised everything, I'm going now into... Farah AllibhaiThe government nationalised everything? Sofiya JohnsonYes, I was 13. At the time, I was in secondary school. And the year before that they nationalised, because everything belonged to the state.  Farah Allibhai  13:57So up until that point, your grandfather passed, so he was no longer part of this colonial administration.  Sofiya JohnsonNo it was all gone. Farah AllibhaiSo it was just the family were just working in the business.  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiWhich was the pop factory. Sofiya Johnson  14:07Yeah which was then Coca Cola.  Farah Allibhai  14:11Coca Cola? Any other brands? Sofiya JohnsonNo Farah AllibhaiSo there was a Coca Cola factory.  Sofiya JohnsonYeah.  Farah AllibhaiYou still had the land which Africans were living on?  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiThere was no rent being charged, so that was great.  Sofiya JohnsonYeah.  Farah AllibhaiThen nationalization happened in the 1970s, after the independence Sofiya Johnson  14:251971, yeah.  Farah AllibhaiAnd then?  Sofiya JohnsonYeah, so one night, I could hear the adults kind of getting very uppity, things was tense. But you know, as a child, nobody tells you what's going on. Or you go to school, it's fine. But we will always escorted to school, always escorted back Farah AllibhaiBy who?    Sofiya JohnsonBy, we had drivers and security people. And then my father decided...Oh, so one day I'm coming home from school and I see these big notices saying property of the Tanzanian government on our house, notices on our house. Farah Allibhai 15:07So by that time, they would have taken the factory away and the land? Sofiya Johnson  15:10The factory was the last to go because there was a big discussion between Coca Cola and the government of Tanzania, they wouldn't allow it. Eventually they took it that's when my father left to go back to Kenya.  Farah AllibhaiSorry you were saying about going home from school and seeing? Sofiya JohnsonYeah and I see all these notices in Swahili. And then after that time we were not allowed to speak Gujarati or English. We had to speak Swahili all the time. If you're caught speaking, those two languages, then you're in trouble. Everyone had to have the photo of the President in their house. You had to go to every compulsory rally, political rally, if you didn't turn up, you're done for. In school, English went out of the window, everything was Swahili. And army training, we had to go running and our beautiful tennis courts were made into fields of rice, you know, farming, we had to go into fields and dig for - I remember being deep in water digging for rice in a paddy field. Farah Allibhai  16:17As a teenager? Sofiya JohnsonI was 13.  Farah AllibhaiAnd this was something that everybody did? Sofiya Johnson  16:22Yeah. Yeah. And if anything happened, they would blame the Indians, you know. The Africans, then of course, they're the top end now. They were oppressed, you know, don't blame them - they're the top ends. At school, if they made any mischief at the school, the headmaster was an army guy, everybody was military. If you, if they made any mischief, and then the headmaster was very strict. He’d came in and said, ‘Okay, who was it?’ and they would say, the Muhindis, the Indians, and there were only three of us, and we'd get punished really badly.   Farah Allibhai  16:59How would they punish you? Sofiya Johnson  17:01We had to stand in the dug up tennis court, with stones in our hand in hot weather, like that, for an hour. Farah Allibhai  17:08Arms outstretched above your head. Sofiya Johnson  17:13And then if you did that, they smacked you in the bum with a big cane. Oh, yes, it wasn't very nice. That's when, by this time, my father has left to go to Nairobi, because we’d lost everything. There was nothing, there was some money saved but it was nothing. My sisters were at school in boarding school in England. I was the only one left to go to boarding school. But of course, it wasn't going to happen. So my father was working in Kenya, Nairobi, he was working for as an accountant in somebody's garage. I can't remember the garage name anyway. But it was a garage.  Farah AllibhaiSo your father had left you and your mother? Sofiya JohnsonYeah and mother with grandmother and certain other cousins. But everybody else left, some to go to Canada, some to come to England. So it was only me and my... Farah AllibhaiFor what purposes? Sofiya JohnsonJust get out. You know, because there was no future for the kids, you had to go. So my uncle went to Vancouver with his children. My aunt went to Vancouver. They all left and some cousins came to the UK.  Farah AllibhaiAnd your father went to Kenya as work. Sofiya JohnsonSo then he had to get me out. So he... this is when my adventure started. Because one day in school, I was... a cousin of mine came, was lunchtime. He said your mother's had a really terrible accident, could be fatal. We need you to come to the hospital, and I was allowed out. And I said ‘Where are we going? That’s not the way to the hospital.’ He said ‘No you’re going straight to the airport.’ Stuck a piece of paper in my hand, it was like a permit. I wish I'd had it now. With a permit and said ‘You're getting on that plane, go.’ I didn't see my mother or nobody. You know, gone. Farah AllibhaiNo possessions, no goodbyes. Sofiya JohnsonJust a little suitcase, that was it. Nothing. Lost everything, whatever I had. Farah AllibhaiWhat made... what led to that decision? Sofiya JohnsonThey had to get me out. Because the there was apparently, now I found this out later, that there was a rumor that the members of that particular party, they were called TANU Tanzania, I can't remember they were called TANU, I cannot remember. There were... they wanted to marry young Indian women. You know, we never assimilated, we were friends that but we never married. We kept our own community. But then in Zanzibar particularly, they abducted young Indian girls and married them. There were 60 year old men with 13/14 year old girls. So there was a rumor that they were going to do the same to us, and that's why they got me out, so I was gone. Farah Allibhai  20:02So you boarded that plane?  Sofiya Johnson  20:05Yes. And then we ended up in Entebbe Airport. So you didn't go straight to Nairobi, it went to Entebbe, it was an 8 seater plane, and it went to Entebbe and at that time Idi Amin was there, as you remember.  And we get out and this big, big soldiers if you I mean, sure, you might remember, but you were too young probably, huge, huge soldiers surrounded me and said ‘You’re under arrest.’ and why? Well the permit is all wrong, something. Anyway, they took me into this room. And I sat there I said, I mean, 13 year old, you know? What's gonna happen to me, they’re so big this man. Fortunately, there was a doctor on the plane who knew my family, he must have bribed them or something because he said, he came to the room and said, ‘Let's go. Let's go. There's a jet waiting. It's going to take us to Nairobi’. Farah Allibhai  21:01And was this doctor an Asian doctor? Sofiya JohnsonAsian doctorFarah AllibhaiWas he Ismaili or Hindu? Sofiya Johnson  21:04No, Hindu. No, he was Muslim, Dr Amin. And he just grabbed me and said, ‘Let's go’, you know, and we got on the plane. And I remember him, giving me a glass of whiskey, which I'd never had in my life. He said, ‘Drink this!’ I said, ‘What happened?’, he said ‘Just sit, we are safe, we are leaving.’ I still remember it so vividly, running on the runway, you see this big plane there. Anyway, I get to Nairobi and he said, ‘There's your father there.’ I just fell into my father's arms. I said, ‘What the hell happened there?’. He said, ‘It's fine, you're safe now. I've got you booked in a school here. We must send you to England to join your sisters.’ But then you said to me, there was no money. So I'd have to do my own thing. You know, I get a get a student visa to England to where my sisters lived. But obviously, I couldn't go to boarding school or university. Farah Allibhai  22:03So that was quite a lot to take on as a 13 year old. Where's my mother, where am I? Sofiya Johnson  22:10Where am I? What am I doing? And I said to him ‘Am I living with you when you?’ and he said, ‘Oh, no, because I'm living in some lodgings. You've got to live with these people.’ But they were strange people.  Farah AllibhaiWere they Ismailis?  Sofiya JohnsonIsmailis, but I cried because, you know, I didn't know who they were. My home life in a few days was just gone. Farah Allibhai  22:32Did you talk to your mom at all in that time? Sofiya Johnson  22:35My mom was too busy doing charity work. I never actually had a relationship with my mother. I was more, I was brought up more by my grandmother and my aunt's. Mother never featured. So as far as I was concerned, she was my biological mother. No, I didn't see her until I was 19. So yeah, so then I went to Aga Khan Academy in Nairobi.  Farah AllibhaiAnd how was that for you? Sofiya JohnsonIt was great. Great. Again, mixed. Farah Allibhai  23:11Did you feel that you had recovered from that instance from moving from Tanzania?  Sofiya Johnson  23:15Yeah. I didn't feel that. I didn't. I mean, once I got into school, and my cousin joined me at the school, I was happy because my cousins were there in Nairobi, my cousin worked at the Aga Khan hospital, he was the chief accountant. So I had people I could be with, you know, and I made some friends in Nairobi. And then my dad said, ‘Okay, time to go.’ In December ‘71, time to go to England, your visas are ready. He got me a proper passport I didn’t have this piece of paper, and I was on my way to England. 1971 with the Uganda Asians. Actually, it was British Caledonian, I remember, and it stopped over. It was a direct flight from Nairobi to Gatwick, but it had a bunch of problems, a tyre problem. So it had to stop over Entebbe. I mean, oh my god, I'm back in Entebbe. You know, I'm so dead. But I didn't get off the plane. And then loads of other Asians got on the plane. I wonder what are they doing? You know, and I remember it's Christmas time and Christmas time and we got lentil curry and rice, for lunch. Farah Allibhai  24:29On the plane? Sofiya JohnsonYeah Farah AllibhaiBut you had no idea that there was this expulsion going?  Sofiya JohnsonNo.  Farah AllibhaiSo those Asians that were on the plane to Britain, were being hosted on British Caledonian with lentils and rice.  Sofiya Johnson  24:43Yes and there's me thinking why is this full of Indians you know, or Asians. And then I asked somebody why? Do you know Idi Amin? I said, ‘yeah’ people have all been kicked out. Everybody's out who are British subjects are out. He wants us all gone.  Farah Allibhai  How old were you then?  Sofiya Johnson14. Farah Allibhai  25:03How did that make you feel when you heard that on the plane? Sofiya Johnson  25:05I was shocked. And there's me going, you know, to the UK. I was, until later on in life, I found out what happened to us in Tanzania. To me it was like a big adventure, you know, apart from being arrested in Entebbe, but, you know, I was like oh where am I going, what am I doing? Yes, I was homesick for Mwanza. But I said, I would never go back. You know, it'd be too hurtful. But yeah, so everyone getting off the plane, get to the man.  Farah Allibhai  25:36So this is how you came to the UK was to be expelled from Tanzania, in a way. Sofiya Johnson  25:43Expelled in a way but left on my own accord really. Or you know, economic migrant, Farah Allibhai  25:49Encouraged to leave the country. Yeah. And with your father, this idea of Britain being a better place for you?  Sofiya Johnson  25:59Yes. My father loved Britain. He'd been here. He lived here for four years in the 60s. And he loved it, but then the family dynamics and our business. He never went back. But my sisters were here already. Farah Allibhai  26:14Do you think the early colonial family experience was an influence on you? Your father wanting the, his daughters to live in England? Sofiya Johnson  26:23They were in a very nice boarding school in Sussex, you know, I mean, they weren't in some weird place. Farah Allibhai  26:32And you were already familiar with the culture to some degree. Sofiya Johnson  26:35Yes, to come to the UK. I was so used to the Queen's English. That when I heard dialects, I can’t understand what people are saying, you know, and then I went to my sister's. Then my sister lived in Stevenage. She was a teacher then. She's qualified. Farah Allibhai  26:58She was much older than in that way, in that sense?  Sofiya Johnson  27:01Yes. But I hadn't seen them for such a long time. I didn't recognize them at the airport.  Farah Allibhai  How old were you when you last saw them? Sofiya JohnsonOh, oh, God, five, six years, seven years.  Farah Allibhai  27:12So you landed in Gatwick, and your family were to meet you? Sofiya Johnson  27:17Yeah, looking. I'm looking for my two sisters. And then I saw them. Because I never had a relationship with my sisters either because they’d left. My older sister left in ‘63 to come to the UK. My other sister left in ‘67. So I didn't know my siblings, really. And then we went, and I said ‘Oh where is the snow?’You have this sort of Dickens type of impression. They said ‘What snow?’Anyway, we get back and they said ‘Listen, you're not going to boarding school because daddy has no money. There's no money. So you can go to the further education college and do your O levels.’, which is what I was doing in Nairobi, but you know, the education in the UK and education in Kenya, totally... Although we did the to the Oxford and Cambridge exams, different type of teaching. But anyway, I did six O levels in six months, which was a shocker. You know, I don't know how I did it. And then my father said, look, you've lost out from the way your sisters have been taught in boarding school. I would have liked you to go to boarding school. But unfortunately, there's only enough money for your sister to do pharmacy at university. And what would you do? Because you’re arty? And I said, well, I could do classic so you know. And he said, yeah, but what would you do after that? She'd earn money, you, what would you do? What was what's the future for you? And I said, you’re right, well let’s have the money give me some and I applied to this very posh college, secretarial college in Oxford to do a secretary’s course Farah AllibhaiDo you remember the college name?  Sofiya JohnsonOxford and county secretarial college. It's now gone, unfortunately. But it was a ladies college, very strict. Oh, we had to wear twinset pearls. And we lived in a boarding house. And the girls from every colonial, you know, and there was discrimination. I'll tell you because I was the only brown person, there was a Ghanaian ambassador's daughter. So people, the parents of these girls complained that they did not... because it was four to a dormitory, and they were two to a room you know, we were in the four. And the next term when we went up, me and Josephine, I remember her, were in the same room, because the parents of those girls had complained that they did not want us to be in the same room, as we were not white. That was my first sort of experience, you know, of what?! It was weird, anyway okay fine, life goes on, you know, carry on. Farah Allibhai  30:03Did you feel that the secretarial college was actually hostile?  Sofiya Johnson  30:07No they were, they took... they were angry with the parents. But what can you do when the parents are paying masses of money. But I only find out from one of the girls that that girl's parents objected anyway, so we were...I finished my secretarial course. And we were head hunted by the BBC, or the Foreign Office. Well, I couldn't go to the Foreign Office because I wasn't a British citizen then, I was Kenyan. So the BBC wanted me. But I was too young, I was only 16. So they said, go away for a year, but come back, we have a job for you. And they would get me the work permit. So I did that. And then went to work for the BBC World Service.  Farah AllibhaiAfter? Sofiya JohnsonAfter, after one year out. Farah AllibhaiWhat did you do for that one year? Sofiya JohnsonI went to Manchester, where my sister lives. She's married by then. And she then moved to Manchester because her husband got a job in the nuclear, something or the other. He was a nuclear engineer Farah Allibhai  31:22Was he British? Sofiya Johnson  31:25British. And I went to live with them. In Manchester, in outside Manchester. I went to college there for a year, and did English Literature. Just pass the time, really, because I was just waiting for the BBC. Farah Allibhai  31:42So was it unusual for your sister to have married a British person? Sofiya Johnson  31:47No. Because we had already had British people in... my cousin married a British guy, the Congo cousins all married Belgians. So no. And when I met my husband, there was no problem. My grandmother was the first cousin to marry, when she brought her then boyfriend home from England, there was a lot of opposition. And he could marry her on the condition that he converted to Islam, which he did. So then my grandmother said listen, times are changing, we can't be enslaved into our own little bit of society, you've got to get out. And if the kids want to marry out, yes, let them. Farah Allibhai  32:35So your grandma was... sounds like she was quite forward thinking.  Sofiya JohnsonYes, she was Farah AllibhaiAnd not dogmatic about religious and cultural practices being kept in the family. Sofiya Johnson  32:44Absolutely. Very liberal. And you know she was strict; she was a strict grandmother. But she was, she was a good grandmother, I would say.  Farah AllibhaiWhere would she have gotten this?  Sofiya JohnsonFrom my grandfather Farah Allibhai  32:56From your grandfather? Who was on board...  Sofiya JohnsonThe colonial  Farah AllibhaiBut also the recommendations of the Aga Khan. Sofiya Johnson  33:04Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because he used to correspond with him all the time. I mean, unfortunately, I don't have it. I don't know where it's gone. I think there's some letters in my drawer from him, from the young Aga Khan, and the old. Yeah. Farah Allibhai  33:21That's really quite something to have that historical correspondence. Sofiya Johnson  33:26Yes, and my grandmother was very big in some, you know, we have all these little societies. And she was very big in something, we used to get people coming to the house and... Farah Allibhai  33:39What the Ismaili society? Sofiya JohnsonIsmaili Farah AllibhaiOh okay so part of the... Sofiya Johnson  33:43Very secret, too secret – very masonic. And that's when, that's where the young Aga, when he was visiting in 1957, I wasn't born obviously. But there's a picture down there of him. And you will see my grandmother looking at him and when he came in ‘79 or something, and she went up on the stage... Farah AllibhaiIn? Sofiya JohnsonIn Earls Court here in London. And she went up and he beamed at her. And it was like, I said to my sister oh, look at that, he's beaming at her as if he's know her, you know. He did know her, he hasn't changed. Farah Allibhai  34:22He remembered her after all these years. Sofiya Johnson  34:24Yes and bless them. Oh, it was like, it was with her for a long time. It was really interesting. And when she died in Canada, there was the Agha Khan, my flag draped over her. So she was important. Farah Allibhai  34:40So despite the colonial aspect, there was a very close connection to the Ismaili Muslim culture and community. Sofiya Johnson  34:49Oh, absolutely. Yes, yes. We followed all the traditions. I mean, you know, it was a different world for the kids because we had, you know, we were doing everything, but the adults, yes, very much so. Jamatkhana every day, all the functions, everything, big donations, built a big Jamatkhana in Mwanza, yeah, all influence of my grandfather, and our family, fundraising, things like that. But obviously, I was too young. And I wish my parents had told me all this because they never talked about it – ever. Farah Allibhai  35:24And was that out of an act of humility? Sofiya Johnson  35:29That also and also, I think my mother was so hell bent on sending us three girls, because you remember the hierarchy, you were patriarchal you know, if you didn't have a son. My grandfather was titled, it was... I can’t remember, Ismaili title. And obviously if my father had a son, the thing would pass to him. But my father had three girls, and it was always this thing about, you know, his younger brother had a son. So it was very, still very patriarchal. But anyway, my mother was hell bent that us three would get an education, you know, not to marry because otherwise, what I was thinking what life would have been like if I was still in Africa, would I be married with two three children, but no education? You know, what would my life have been like? I don't know. And here my mother says out, you know, she wouldn't even teach us how to cook. I said, can you teach us how to cook? Nope, nope, go study, study, I want you to get out. I want you to go and get educated. So you stand on your own two feet you never depend on anyone, ever.  Farah Allibhai  36:43Where do you think that came from that drive for independence to not even be reliant? Sofiya Johnson  36:47I think my mother, she came from a very high class family in Dar es Salaam. And she married my father who was a bit of a lout - her words. And when she came, when she married my father, and she came to this - Dar es Salaam was very sophisticated. And her sister in law, our brothers, they lived in South Africa so they were very sophisticated. And when she came to this little thing called Mwanza, yes, the big house wasn't built then, it was, it was a little house, you know, ten to a space. And she was like her trousseau was all from South Africa silk, and stuff. And her sister in laws were a bit you know, they were all... and my mother, she did tell me, she said they was so nasty. And there's me coming into this thing. And we used to have a huge house in Dar es Salaam, her father ran hotels, in Dar es Salaam. And then she comes into this thing and she thought, that’s it, if I have any children, they will never suffer, what I went through, they'll go, they'll be out, gone independent, never needing anyone, because obviously she had to depend on my father didn't she? And she was 21 years old. So by Indian standards, she was too old, you know, should have married at 18 or 17. And there was my father, she only saw him and she went ew. I said really? She said, I never want you to go through that again. And that's why – out. And I said, but you never taught us how to cook, now I can't cook, you know? And she said, that's fine, you just study independence, I want you to have your own house, your own thing. Never depend on anyone, even your own husband. Never. That was the thing, because of what she'd been through. Yes. Farah Allibhai  38:44And how do you, how has that informed your life going forward as you moved through living in Britain? Sofiya Johnson  38:51Independent. I mean, yes, I've married. But, if you ask my husband, I'm totally my own person. You know, if he tells me grow your hair, I'll cut it short. That sort of thing. Will not, you know, I respect him. I love him. But he'll never ever take over my life or make me dependent on him. I'm my own person, your Farah Allibhai  39:13Your mother could be called an Asian feminist in that sense, and that's something that is not really recognized in the West that we have, as Asian women, have gone through our generational struggles in different ways and liberated ourselves.  Sofiya Johnson  39:28Yes. I mean, I have, obviously have family who are quite narrow minded. My sister who's in her 60/70s now, young middle sister has never married. And my mother used to get things like, you know, oh, look at your daughter she's never married, and my mother said ‘So? She's got a business, multimillion business. She's her own free woman if she wants to marry tomorrow, she can - nothing to do with me, don't tell me.’ She was she was good like that. Farah Allibhai  39:55So she really went against the cultural norm. Sofiya Johnson  39:59Well she had to listen to all the taunts and you know, the hypocrisy ‘Oh your daughters, you know, look, look at them, they married white people.’ It was like that with certain members of the family and community.  Farah Allibhai  40:14So that idea of being single or marrying outside of the community, being independent are all things that were frowned upon.  Sofiya Johnson  40:24Yes. But my parents didn't care.  Farah Allibhai  40:26And that would you say that that belongs more to Indian culture as opposed to taking on the doctrines of Ismailism? Sofiya Johnson  40:37Difficult... Ismailism I would say. Farah Allibhai  40:41That they took, that your parents took on their doctrines Ismailism above and beyond the Indian culture. Sofiya JohnsonYes, yes. Farah AllibhaiSo tell me, you were headhunted by the BBC.  Sofiya Johnson  40:52Yes. I worked at the World Service, in the Swahili service. I was there for 10 years. Farah Allibhai  41:00Were you speaking Swahili?  Sofiya Johnson  41:02Then, but you didn't have to really, you know, but they got me a work permit. In the meantime, I'd met Michael at Oxford while I was in Oxford, at the College, because the whole idea of going to that college was to marry rich Oxford graduates, when I didn't I married a decorator, you know, working class decorator. I mean, his parents had never seen a brown person ever. The village was in a very sort of, you see this in Midsomer Murders, you know? And I said to Michael, well I'm gonna meet your parents. And he said, yeah, what's wrong? And I said, Well, look at me. I'm not white. And he said, yeah but they won’t mind. And they didn't. I was like, Oh, Mr. Johnson, his father was a Halifax working class man. I mean, really lovely. I adored him. And mother, she used to... very strong woman again, used to wield Spitfires in the war, you know? And independent, again, very independent of her husband. Daughter, two sons - well, and I married Michael. And I said to my mother, you know, did you, I asked her once she said that the only time I thought about you marrying Michael is what colour would your children be?I don't know, they might have been white might have been brown, who knows? I mean, she adored my nephew, who's quite brown, you know but she said, that's the only thing I thought I never thought, oh, you know, and I was accepted by their family. They never made me feel that I was, you know, I was, I was not different. But you know, talking to friends, talking to certain friends, especially in Wales. They will say to me... I would say, but I'm the same colour as the person you're abusing. And they go, yeah, but you're different. You talk differently. You wear different clothes. And I say yeah, but I'm the same. That's my culture I really should be doing that but I don't. I said, if you came and saw me now in a hijab, or whatever, would you be abusive?Couldn’t answer my question.  Farah AllibhaiThat's really interesting, that's very interesting. Sofiya JohnsonYou know, you're different. That's all I could hear you different. You speak differently. You wear different clothes, you're not like them.   Farah Allibhai  43:20Is the inference then you're British, overtly British. You present as being British as opposed to Indian or Pakistani or?  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiSo in your traditional dress, in your accent, in the way you speak English, in your manners. Sofiya Johnson  43:39In my mannerisms, that I'm, I'm British, yes. But I wear Indian garb, I put henna on my hands and they say oh, what's this have you got a disease? I say no, it’s henna you know, it's like a tattoo, except that it’s not permanent. Don't be ignorant. I said, we live in a very global world now, try understand this. But you know, what is never going to happen is it? I mean, my nephew, who's now in his 40s has been racially abused. He's very conscious of his colour, our colouring, whereas my niece is very white with blondish, mousy hair. So he's dark he’s swarthy. Has a very good job with Virgin Atlantic. But even now, he said, you living somewhere where there are no brown people? Why can't you live with us? I said, well, I like it here. I like it here for the peace and quiet. I’m not concerned about what's out there, you know. Farah AllibhaiAnd where is here?  Sofiya JohnsonIn Manchester, because there's a big community there. Farah Allibhai  44:45What I meant is why aren't you living... Sofiya Johnson  44:49Why am I living here in Wales, in this enclave of white people? Farah Allibhai  44:55So before we get into how got to be into Wales, this is such a fascinating story. You were living in England, I'm interested that you didn't apply for citizenship when you arrived in the UK was that because it was not available? Sofiya Johnson  45:11Not available, I would have to be here for five years, at that time, to then apply for British Nationality. But I married, I married at the age of 19. I married Michael.  Farah AllibhaiSo that kind of took care of itself.  Sofiya JohnsonIn those days you became automatically became a British citizen, except that when we went to the home office - this was funny. Michael says, oh, because he'd never seen queues of people. They asked me if my marriage had been consummated because at that time, if you're too young probably.They put Asian women into, Indian women into... it was a marriage of convenience. A lot was happening then. So this home office person asked me, has your marriage being consummated? Michael said, what do you think? And she said, well, we have to ask, if, are you prepared to be examined by a doctor? Oh, yes. Are you prepared to be examined by a doctor should we need to? I said yeah, why not? Go ahead. And they didn't. But it was weird. Farah Allibhai  46:22Did you not feel offended? Sofiya Johnson  46:25Yes. What can you do? You know and she just dumped the passport and said welcome to Britain. I went really? And I never felt at home in England. I never did. I never felt welcome. You know, there was always this underlying something that I never felt. I mean a lot of friends in in London you know. And then, of course, I discovered Wales. Farah Allibhai  46:53But this is interesting that you said about never feeling at home in England.  Sofiya JohnsonYeah.  Farah AllibhaiDespite presenting as British and having a lot of friends.  Sofiya Johnson  47:06Yes. I didn't have any Ismaili friends. No, all English. Farah Allibhai  47:10So this is why am I interested, why did you not feel at home?  Sofiya Johnson  47:15Because I don't know, there was something just making me feel not welcome. Yes they talked to me, I was their mate. There was always this underlying, you know, something, I just can't put my finger on it. I've got this friend in London and she'll say to me, oh, I went to see the doctor today and he was black. And you think so? Or he was brown. I said so. And my cousin actually kicked her out of his house because he said she was a racist. So she’ll still do - oh, the plumber came today, oh, he was black. It's the way it was said. So I said, so what do you think of me then? I'm brown. How about you, again you different. Farah Allibhai  48:01And then you discovered Wales?  Sofiya Johnson  48:05Yeah so, I met some Welsh people when I was in Greece. Really nice ladies, older, much older. And they were really, really - loved their accent. I love their sing-songy accent and it was so funny. And I said so you live in Wales? She says, don't tell me you’ve not been, I said no. Actually, they haven't been passed sort of Oxford, you know, or Manchester. And she said, come to Wales. She lived in Newport, her friend lived in Caerleon. And I honestly getting over this bridge, which was then the Severn Bridge was like, whoa, this is it, this is me, this is me - I'm home. Even though of course, I didn't know anything about you know, what was down there. It was just something about... I don't know, I can't express it. It was the feeling of peace, which I'd never known in England.  Farah AllibhaiSomething about the Welsh landscape inspired you? Sofiya JohnsonYes, very much the light, something. And they said we’ll go to France to see this light where they painted and you think, oh it was the same here? I mean look at that - the light. And I thought wow, anyway, that was a long time ago, but I used to visit, I used to come every month to Wales and they took me everywhere. They brought me to the Valleys. They brought me took me to Monmouthshire to Swansea. Remember Cardiff Bay wasn't there then - it was a dump if you remember.  Farah AllibhaiWhen was that?  Sofiya Johnson30 years ago, 40, 35 years ago. Tiger Bay. Farah Allibhai  49:3435 years ago was when you first came to Wales then?  Sofiya JohnsonYes 1980 something  Farah AllibhaiAnd so you were privileged enough to have experienced the real Tiger Bay.  Sofiya JohnsonYes.  Farah AllibhaiAnd that's something historically significant - wonderful Sofiya Johnson  49:45I said to my... so this is your immigrant area. And she said yeah, but we don't go there, it's dangerous. I went okay fine. But I saw a lot of Wales, and Cardiff is great as a city, but I love the mountains. I love the mountains every time they brought me up to... in the weekend this way we want to Blaenafon I said I could easily live here. Oh, it's a tough life. I said, oh, I could easily live here. Of course for work, I'd have to be in Cardiff, or the city. But anyway, things changed. And I didn't make it because we went to America instead. My sister lived in the Cayman Islands. And I went to live in the Cayman Islands for three months to be with her. I said to my husband, I'm off. I'm tired of London. I'm going, I'm going to the Caymans, is it okay? Bye then, see you. Off I went lived with her in Cayman Islands for three months, then came back. She then got headhunted to Florida to a big pharmaceutical, something or the other company. And so we visited Florida, I would go to Florida three or four times a year. Michael wouldn't but I would. And, and eventually, he said, well, I want to live there. So we decided to make a move after my parents passed away. Because we looked after my parents. Again, as a white man, he didn't know how to look after... they don't have that relationship family dynamic like we do. Because I said to him, I said, if you marry me, you marry my family. You know that, don't you? Because we will be around. And he said yeah, I don't mind. And he really helped my parents, both of them. Both of them were very fond of Michael. And he helped his mother as well, he's got a good heart. So yes, so we went to America for 2004 to 2011. Had a business over there but the American Embassy didn't like it so we were back. Farah Allibhai  51:53What was your experience like in America, did you feel welcomed, did you enjoy California?  Sofiya JohnsonFlorida Farah AllibhaiFlorida. Sorry. Sofiya Johnson  52:00Yes. But the people were very strange. You met the very mad part of Florida. And you had the very kind of Republican oh they were not very nice, but they were all my clients. They were the rich ones. I mean, I get $100 $300 tips to do just a bit of work for them you know.  Farah AllibhaiWhat was your business?  Sofiya JohnsonIt was a wellness clinic, natural means by light therapy. So if you had an injury, or if you fell down or you were a dancer, I had a lot of dancers, a lot of runners would come in within three, four treatments that were back on. Because you know when you got your big injury, you'd be out for six, seven months. These weren't, three months later, I mean, they were out there. It's very big in Canada and the US, there's some places in London that do it. But it hasn't got on here. Because the pharmaceuticals won't let you. They want you to have the medicines. Why should you? I had trouble with the pharmaceuticals. Farah Allibhai  In America?  Sofiya JohnsonOh, yeah.  And the medics, because oh, it doesn't work. I said, look at the research, this has been going on for ages. They're now doing, you know, they do laser therapy, where it's not so invasive. And you'll get well, quickly, rather than being cut - it’s the same thing. But this is called laser, that's hot laser. I said it's been going on for ages, there's proof. It was a struggle. Farah Allibhai  53:31It was a struggle out there. And you said you had the crazy part of..? Sofiya Johnson  53:38Yeah they were the... well I wouldn't say, because people thought I was crazy as well. Okay, so I'm putting myself in that category. So the holistic people, so although I was running a scientific thing, to me, it was holistic. And I had a massage therapist doing things, giggling healing things, and it was a bit of a mixture because Florida actually up north is very holistic, it's got lots of therapists. Yes, some good some bad. You know, a lot of chakra readings and lots... of some things are very weird, I must say. But, you know, I couldn't get my head around yet, but I think I'm quite spiritual. I feel things, I feel like I met you. I suddenly, you walked in the room, I thought, whoa, I feel a connection here. You know, a lot of people I don't but yeah, you got involved with some crazies I must say. And then drum beating you know and Michael said what the hell are you doing now? You’re completely crazy. He called me a nut job. I said, look, it pleases me, okay. It pleases me, I believe. I believe I'm an open book. I love everything. The strangest thing here in Wales was I went to the sacred shop, they have crystals and stuff. And every Monday, we used to go there, and she was a palmist or tarot person a spiritual person. And this one morning she had an Ouija board. Now, I've never seen one, I've heard of them, they'll call it a spiritual board. Okay, so she said, you put your finger on the thing and it moves. So she said, who are you very dear to? I said, my grandfather. And she said, alright, ask him if he's here. And honestly, that thing moved and said, yes. I said, what is your name? And he spelled his name for me – Alauddin. Now I’m with a bunch of white people. If it said John Smith, I'd question it. But when he said Alauddin, and I said, when did you die? And he said 6th February 1962. At that point, I let go. I got a couldn't believe it.   Farah Allibhai  55:59You found this kind of spiritual practice out in Aberdare in Wales that you'd not experienced quite before so it’s quite phenomenal that this is... tell me a bit about you landing in Wales then. Sofiya Johnson  56:11Okay, so when we came back to America, obviously the American Embassy refused the business visa, so we had to leave. So we had to sell, apartment, had to sort out the business, come back to Oxford. And where Michael's from and we lived with his mum for a bit, because I didn't want to live with mum for a bit. But anyway, she had to go into a nursing home. And I said to Michael, I think it's time now it's time to move to Wales. And my friend Debbie, who moved from London to Wales, and married a Welshman lived in Bridgend, and she had a cottage in Ystrad and she said, you know what are you doing in Oxford wasting your time. You know, you want to come to Wales. I'm offering you the cottage, come try it for a year. If you don't like it, go back, you know well the world’s your oyster now. You can do what you want. And I said, okay. So we came to this cottage and after she’d done it up and I loved it. I loved... and you know, her friend Hillary took us up to Rhigos and we stood there and you're looking at all these mountain and the Brecons and I went Oh, my God, and I still see this view and I can't get over it. I cannot, I see it and I go, oh, I can't believe this, how beautiful it is. Farah Allibhai  57:40Despite your memories of East Africa and all the road trips, here in Wales, you're blown away by its landscape.  Sofiya Johnson  57:46Nevermind the Serengeti and all the lovely places. No, this is it for me. I'm gonna die here. I mean, honestly, it is it. And, and the beaches and the ocean, you know, and we go to St Davids to see our friends and we go to Ogmore, Debbie's. And it's like, I don't want to leave Wales you know, you just going over the bridge to England when it says ‘Welcome to England’, I go really depressed. That's, that's how it happens. And then you come back to Wales and it says ‘Croeso i Gymru’ I think oh we’re back. Isn't that terrible?  Farah AllibhaiIt's delightful. Sofiya Johnson  58:22I think. Oh, my God. And Michael looks at me like you're completely mad. So I don't think I'm going to leave this little house.  Might end up somewhere else but no. There’s pressure to move to Manchester to be near the community.  Farah Allibhai  58:35I think for the Asians who live in Wales, my father was one of them, had this same experience.  Of this homecoming, of this welcome. That you don't experience anywhere else in Britain. I feel exactly the same whenever I come to and from England into Wales. I know my place is here, up to this point. So  you've had such a journey, and so many life experiences and these ups and downs, you know, having a business not having a business, taking care of your family, taking care of your in laws, having places to live not having places to live, not having money, not having passports, being displaced. What does resilience mean to you now? Sofiya Johnson  59:25Am I as resilient as I was then, I think then, now I feel I feel not so strong. Maybe I'm getting older, I don't know. But then it was like a big adventure. You know, everything was an adventure. I treated it like an adventure. I think I wouldn't have survived if I hadn't been so resilient. And I think it's thanks to my mom, who would just tell me go, you don't need to depend on anyone. You need to go stand on your own two feet I always remember that - go. And my sisters both of them too.  Farah Allibhai  1:00:03So this idea of being, a need to be independent, has been the thing that has given you, has been the source of your resilient.  Sofiya Johnson  1:00:13Yes. Never, never, never I wouldn’t say never obey. I mean, even with my dad when he, when eventually when they came to live in England, because they left, they left, they left Kenya soon after, to go to India. But they didn't like it. Because they couldn't assimilate with the Indians. They said, they were really different. And I said dad, you’re Indian and he said no we’re not, you need to come and look, but we didn't go - never been to India. But then we decided they'd go and live in Portugal, and they loved Portugal. So again, I wonder if it’s a colonial thing you know. They loved, loved Portugal, they lived in near the sea near Stone Hill. And there was a Jamatkhana in Portugal. They loved it until they both got poorly, and then came back.  Farah AllibhaiCame to Britain? Sofiya JohnsonCame to the UK to live, yeah, after that it was time.  Farah Allibhai  1:01:07How easy was it for them to come from Portugal into the UK? Sofiya Johnson  1:01:11Very, at that time, they came as our dependents, applied for dependency as long as they did not ask the government for anything. I said, no, we have a house, we have money, we have resources now. And so no, they'll be totally reliant on me and my husband. And we built a further storey on our house so they could have their own bedroom bathroom, we had our own space – we ate together. And we did everything else together they’d go to mosque on Fridays, we didn't obviously. And we had a dog not a mad dog like the one we've got now, but a smaller dog. And my mom was really fond of the dog. Yeah. And then of course, they both got poorly and passed away.  Farah Allibhai  1:02:02So that actually goes against the stereotypes of how people come to the UK and why they came to the UK. And a lot of that is about claiming benefits, having free housing and so on. You supported your parents and through their illnesses as well. Sofiya Johnson  1:02:19Until now that I'm now getting a pension, I don't think it's a benefit, I think, is it my entitlement for working 35 years in this country and paying tax. Never did my parents claim any benefit until my father was dying. And the social workers said you know, you can get something called attendance allowance. And we went what's that then and I said, we're not allowed to. I said, I've signed the paper with the Home Office. Still got it. I went to dad, okay you wanna take it. I said, if we get caught, then I'll have to pay it back you know that. Anyway he died so all the money went back it was alright.  But he got, he got benefits he didn't want them, I didn't want them. Because I'd signed that condition with the Home Office that we'd never be dependent on the state. Farah Allibhai  1:03:10And this was a recommendation from a whites, social social. Sofiya Johnson  1:03:14Yeah a British social worker. So they were getting something. I can't remember I think it was attendance allowance. And I said to my dad you had all this money in your bank. He said, yeah, I said well keep it because I might have to give it back. Because this is not right. And they never asked for it so I gave it to charity – gave it all to Marie Curie. Farah Allibhai  1:03:36I’m sur Marie Curie really appreciated that.  And just before we kind of wrap things up. I'm curious, would you, you said that you've never been to India?  Sofiya JohnsonWould I ever go you mean?  Farah Allibhai  And would you ever go back to East Africa? Sofiya Johnson  1:03:54I think it would hurt too much. I think I took Michael when we married. I wanted him to see, but only to Kenya. But things were different. I said this how we lived. We did the right thing and Safari and all that and all that. But I left... I got on the plane and I was so upset and I thought I can't come back. I don't know if I can go back. It will be too hurtful. My cousins go all the time, even my cousins have just come back from Mwanza. And they show me it's now a city of 1 million people. And it hurts to see it like that, you know, I think oh my god. It was happy days by the lake, watching the crocodiles and watching the hippo, local hippo come in. And now it's nothing they're so gone. A city of 1 million people when it used to be about 10,000. Farah Allibhaiand it was very close to nature. Sofiya JohnsonYes. Because you could hear at night, this is what I’ll never forget, is the sound of the drums. You’re lying there and you hear a lion roar, and you hear a leopard roar. And then you hear the 'du du du du’ of the drums, the drums of Africa and that sound will never leave me until I die. So in a way I think, do I say I'm an African? Or I'm British. I just say I'm a universal citizen. Because Africa means the world to me. It really does, but we had to leave and it’s sad. 

Recording 2: Short clip: Sofiya Johnson talking about growing up in Kenya

Tue, Jul 02, 2024 2:10PM • 0:40

SUMMARY KEYWORDS: lived, nairobi, johnson, born, sofia, kenya, sophia, 18th, april

 00:00Oh, far alibi recording Sofia Johnson on the 18th of April 2024. Please introduce yourself. My name is Sophia Johnson. I was born in Nairobi, Kenya, but lived most I've lived since the age of 14 in the United Kingdom. What were you were you born 19 56/14 of July 1956. That's great in Nairobi, Kenya. But most of our life we lived in Monza, Tanzania.