Transcript from an interview with Anil Pabari conducted as part of the Welsh Asian Heritage Project.

 

Recording: Interview with Anil Pabari. Welsh Asian Heritage Project
 

Date: 28th March 2024

Interviewer: Chandrika Joshi 

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Chandrika: Hello, I'm Chandrika Joshi and it's the 28th of March 2024. Today, I've come to Ilford in London to talk to Anil Pabari, who also came from Uganda in 1972, and he is the son of Induben Pabari.

Anil Pabari: Hello. Hello.

Chandrika: Hi, Anil. Hi. So, tell me, how old were you? Do you remember Uganda at all?

Anil Pabari: Very well.

Chandrika: Yeah. Tell me about it. What was life like?

Anil Pabari: Well, we were just happy go lucky. You know, we were just sort of no stress, just playing outside. Obviously, no toys to play. We just sort of kids were just playing outside.

Chandrika: Oh right, you found your own games did you?

Anil Pabari: Own games with people around us, obviously had our own friends.

Chandrika: And you were in Soroti, yeah.

Anil Pabari: We were in Soroti, yeah. The only problem now is that keeping in touch with all the friends we’ve missed.

Chandrika: All right, all the people right.

Anil Pabari: Yeah. Although I have kept in touch with few. But it's been a long time. Yeah.

Chandrika: Do you remember when you were expelled? What was it like for you when you heard that you had to leave?

Anil Pabari:  Well, initially, we didn't understand, but then we when we started packing. I think that bit of trauma was there when we saw a friend, I saw my friends just moving away. I remember that bit. 

Chandrika: So, one minute there, there, then next week they’re all gone

Anil Pabari: They’re all gone. And then we were moving as well. And actually, the journey from Soroti to Kampala. We felt it. I felt it.

Chandrika: Was it scary a little bit?

Anil Pabari: I remember it was scary a little bit because at that time. I still remember the army in between.

Chandrika:  The checkpoints.

Anil Pabari: The checkpoints and the army lorries.

Chandrika: Yeah, yeah yeah.

Anil Pabari: But, luckily, we managed to get to Kampala. But obviously didn't understand why, for what reason.

Chandrika: Was there any excitement at all?

Anil Pabari: Not really, not really, because the idea of coming to London - that thought wasn't there yet. Yeah, it wasn't there yet, you know. Obviously -

Chandrika: Do you remember roughly, sort of. Were you travelling in daytime or evening?

Anil Pabari: Yeah, I think it’s evening time. Yeah, I think it was evening time.

Chandrika: Evening. Okay. And your flights came to which airport?

Anil Pabari: I think it was Stanstead.

Chandrika: Stansted. Yeah, and what happened? Was it at night you came to Stansted or daytime?

Anil Pabari: So early morning yeah.

Chandrika: Right. Do you remember that at all or not, really.

Anil Pabari: Little bit like I was always remember it was slightly darker and it was cold. It was cold.  It's because.

Chandrika: It was cold yeah?

Anil Pabari: It was cold. Because remember, October. And then you feel, oh it’s supposed to be their winter here. Yeah, it was cold.

Anil Pabari: Because we never felt cold enough in Soroti.

Chandrika: No, no. The temperature was the same.

Anil Pabari: Even if it rained in Soroti, you’d be okay for a while. And then hot again.

Chandrika: So, what happened after Stansted Airport?

Anil Pabari: I remember going on a coach and you went to a place - an army barracks in Honiton, in Devon.

Chandrika: Honiton.

Anil Pabari: It was a long journey. I still remember it was a long, long journey. Yeah, obviously, half time we were just asleep because of the journey itself. And then I remember we were just put in a army barracks, like a hut.

Chandrika: What was the food like and day-to-day life in the camp?

Anil Pabari: You sort of, just tried to make new friends again, you know, just trying to understand. Plus, obviously, don't forget it was very cold. Still winter time. It was very cold.

Anil Pabari: It was just like, helping out. It's just like helping out. Yeah, helping out.

Chandrika: Yeah, so you were a volunteer, and you already started helping out?

Anil Pabari: Just helping out. Yeah, I would just -

Chandrika: So, the older people who couldn't leave their huts, you would take food over for them yeah?

Anil Pabari: Yeah, it was just food best, right.

Chandrika: Was there a school in Honington camp? Was there a little school there?

Anil Pabari: I can't remember that much because you were just too busy trying to…sort of come to terms with it. You know? And also, we didn’t stay that long. Just a few months.

Chandrika: And where did you go from there?

Anil Pabari: Before that, then they said we had to go to a place in North Wales - a place called Tywyn. And I didn’t know why, what was the reason -

Chandrika: You don't know why you were moved. Yeah, OK.

Anil Pabari: So, there was a North Wales - again, a long journey. Yeah. Again cold.

Chandrika: Cold. Yeah. What did you think of that camp? The North Wales camp?

Anil Pabari: Yeah. Again, it's like, you know, you just took it in. You know, you just think. Yeah, no reason why. Yeah, we don't know why Honington was - was is it shut down or? Yeah, we didn't know what was happening.

Chandrika: So, as a child, you had no idea, you just went along with wherever they took you.

Anil Pabari: Yes, right. Yeah. I mean, obviously, we're grateful they took us.

Chandrika: What are your memories of Tonfanau?

Anil Pabari: Cold as usual.

Chandrika: Did you make any friends?

Anil Pabari: I don’t remember. I can’t remember any of the friends there.

Chandrika: Do you remember the school there?

Anil Pabari: No. Again, it was within the camps. I don’t remember that bit.

Chandrika: I have a photo of you at school, right. So I'll pass that on to you.

Anil Pabari: In the camp?

Chandrika: In the camp, yeah.

Anil Pabari: Whoa. Oh, that’ll be wonderful. That'll be wonderful. OK.

Chandrika: Yeah. And after that, why did you choose to be housed in the Rhondda? Or you just took whatever was offered?

Anil Pabari: I got a feeling we just took whatever was offered.

Speaker 3: They did ask where we wanted… They did say. It’s only. I remember because of Mum telling me. There was choices to go to Leicester, Birmingham and Mum just didn't want to go to those places because she knew we would be…you know, from Uganda.

Chandrika: OK. All right. So they just wanted a little more freedom, right?

Speaker 3: And plus, someone must have mentioned the kind of schools in mid Wales or South Wales are much better than in Birmingham or Leicester. So, all she wanted - 

Chandrika: For schooling reasons

Speaker 3: For schooling reasons only. You know, she didn't want us to be laden down with just doing penny jobs…elsewhere you know.

Chandrika: She wanted you to be educated

Speaker 3: Educated, you know. So, money was not the issue. Because luckily -

Chandrika: Do you remember when you first came to Penygraig?

Anil Pabari: Sort of, because we remember the house. 

Chandrika: Was it by coach? They brought you or something. By coach was it?

Anil Pabari: Yes, by coach.

Chandrika: And then you were just…remind me. Tell me what it was like to be dropped off there and…

Anil Pabari: It was good because I thought, wow, place of our own, of our own. Remember, it was squashed in – in the camp.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. And we found an Angel there. Mrs – who?

Anil Pabari: Harding.

Speaker 3: Miss Harding. Miss, miss. Miss Harding, sorry.

Chandrika: So there was someone who lived in Penycraig by the name of Miss Harding. So, she basically adopted you as a family. What was? What was it? Was she a teacher or what?

Speaker 3: She was like a social worker, was she? I don’t know how – but she managed to find out - there's an Asian family coming, and she really helped us out. She even, on our behalf, wrote to Margaret Thatcher at that time. Because, Hitesh was here before the exodus, so he was not classed as – we were classed as British.

Chandrika: But he wasn’t?

Speaker 3: I don’t how he was. Or his education. No. Sorry. His education was to be paid, but we had left Uganda… because we left Uganda.

Chandrika: So, he was not entitled to free education.

Speaker 3: But Miss Harding wrote to the then Education Secretary, Margaret Thatcher.

Chandrika: I think that was, was it when Hitesh was going to university, because that's what – they wanted him to pay as an overseas person and she basically sorted that out.

Speaker 3: Yes, that’s it yes.

Chandrika: Miss Harding?

Speaker 3: Miss Harding.  You know she came to Ilford. Yeah. One time she came to our house. She stayed with us.

Chandrika: Oh, did she? How nice.

Speaker 3: Yeah, but after obviously going back and she passed away.

Chandrika: Yeah. She was a ‘Miss’ Harding yeah? So she didn’t have children or anything?  Which she was a miss Harding. Right. So, she didn't have.

Speaker 3: No, I don’t think she had anyone. She had some kind of family. We tried to get in touch with her, but they said ‘oh she’s passed away now’.

Chandrika: So, initially you thought, oh, the house is really nice. But you know, what was the drawbacks?

Speaker 3: Oh, severe damp conditions.

Anil Pabari: And it was freezing.

Chandrika: It was freezing. There was no heating?

Speaker 3: Just that one. One room - coal, fire. Open in one in just one room.

Chandrika: Wow. And that was the only warm place in the whole house. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Kersone heaters. But you can smell it inside.

Chandrika: They were they were kerosene heaters, but oh gosh right? So, you have to buy this fuel then.

Speaker 3: So yeah, they actually used to provide them.

Chandrika: Oh, like Caligas heaters.

Speaker 3: But I think it was more, it was liquid. Wasn’t it?

Anil Pabari: That bit I can’t remember.

Chandrika: But they were oil heaters or whatever?

Anil Pabari: Something like that.

Chandrika: And you were all very young then.

Anil Pabari: We were kids, yeah.

Chandrika: So you went to primary school. You were in primary school to start?

Anil Pabari: Yeah. Well, initially I went to comprehensive school.

Chandrika: Oh, you were put in comprehensive straight away, yeah.

Anil Pabari: Initially and then on the first day they gave me some kind of test and obviously I passed that test like maths tests - easily and that's one of the teachers said I shouldn't be here. Because I was one of the top one’s. And they said, you should go to grammar school. And they straight away changed me to a grammar school. So that's why I went to Porth grammar school.

Chandrika: Yeah, yeah.

Anil Pabari: So, I went to Porth grammar there. Obviously, initially their accent was different. And our accent would be indifferent as well.

Chandrika: So how did you, how did you find the school? What? Did you what did you?

Anil Pabari: Well, the school was okay. The - could see –

Speaker 3: The teachers were really –

Anil Pabari: The teachers were helpful.

Speaker 3: The teachers were really good, very accommodating. They knew we had come from abroad -

Anil Pabari: - So they knew we were refugees, and they knew our background, in that way. And plus - I knew I was doing well in school, compared with their own students. So, they were quite surprised that way. I remembered that.

Chandrika: Oh really? Were they?

Anil Pabari: And I still remember one of the friends at lunch time. You know, mum used to give me food and I used to share it with them.

Chandrika: Oh did you? Did they like it?

Anil Pabari: And this particular guy, he still remembers me. I remember phoning him the other day and he said – I remember you.

Chandrika: Oh really? Gosh.

Anil Pabari: Because he met my youngest brother Surin, somewhere in a pub. And just talking about Wales, and he thought oh I used to have an Indian friend called Anil Pabari

Chandrika: Oh my God!

Anil Pabari: Out of the blue.

Chandrika: Oh my God!

Anil Pabari: And Surin didn't say for anything for a minute. And then, after a while, he goes - that's my brother.

Chandrika: Good to God. What a coincidence.

Anil Pabari: Exactly. And then I phoned him, he said – I remember you, you know why? Because you were so kind. I thought what? He said, you used to share your food with me. And I used to help him in his maths homework, because people used to bully him at school.

Anil Pabari: And I sued to share my food with him and help him with homework, yeah. So that, impressions… I haven't seen him since 1978 when I left for University. But he still remembers me that way, yeah.

Chandrika: Gosh.

Anil Pabari: So, school wise –

Chandrika: That’s a nice story, you know. So, the school was good right – Porth Grammar right? Yeah, and it became a comprehensive later?

Anil Pabari: I think after I must have been gone. After. And while I was there, the students actually chose me to become the Head Boy there.

Chandrika: Oh, you became head boy.

Anil Pabari: So, I became the head boy when I was in sixth form. Yeah.

Chandrika: Oh wow.

Anil Pabari: Yeah. So, I still remember the teachers making me a role model for them. Like, okay you should be like him working hard, yeah.

Chandrika: Like Anil Pobari.  Gosh. And then you left in 78’ to go to university. And what did you study?

Anil Pabari: Computing.

Chandrika: Oh wow, okay.

Anil Pabari: So, I went to Norwich.

Chandrika: And your parents were still in Penycraig when you went to Norwich, right? OK.

Anil Pabari: That’s right. And that's when the I think after a year later they came to London, yeah.

Chandrika: They came to London a year later, okay. So, tell me a little bit, mum's contribution towards… mum and Dad's contribution towards setting up setting up a business from nothing.

Anil Pabari: Obviously it gives you the inspiration, isn't? How… their hard work.

Speaker 3: Very hard work.

Anil Pabari: Builds into you.

Chandrika: Yeah. So, they set it up from nothing.

Speaker 3: Yeah, nothing. Literally from nothing.

Anil Pabari: From nothing. Because we didn't have anything to start off with.

Chandrika: No, no.

Anil Pabari: So, the good thing is that we had unity in our family.

Chandrika: Yeah, yeah.

Anil Pabari: So, the whole idea is to help each other.

Chandrika: Yeah.

Anil Pabari: Yeah, it's not like, no, it's not like mine and yours. It's ours.

Chandrika: Yeah.

Anil Pabari: It's always been ours. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what they've taught us. Families come first.

Chandrika: And you've seen them work hard.

Anil Pabari: We've seen them work hard, both mum and dad.

Chandrika: When did Mum stop working in cooking - commercial cooking?

Anil Pabari: I think after she had a stroke. But we still… we still … just to keep her active, we wanted her to come in.

Chandrika: You have a shop, yeah? So, you have a shop, you had the shop, yeah?

Anil Pabari: Well, we had a shop. I formally retired last year, 1st of November last year. But the shop we just now leased it out.  From 1st of November last year. Yeah, yeah. But, unfortunately, in 1998 I was, diagnosed with epilepsy out of the blue.

Chandrika: So that changed your life, really.

Anil Pabari: That changed my life. So, then, luckily the shop helped me.

Chandrika: Because you had your own professional career, didn't you?

Anil Pabari: I did yeah.

Chandrika:  You had to stop that in 1998 after the epileptic attacks.

Anil Pabari: A little bit, yeah, because in 2003 I had to leave my job.

Chandrika: 2003 you had to leave, right?

Anil Pabari: Yeah, because obviously with epilepsy they take your licence away.

Chandrika: Oh right, yeah.

Anil Pabari: So, then you have to travel by tubes and trains, and that's not an easy job to do with this. The one thing I don't like is too much noise and too many people around me. But luckily, like you say, we had family support and something to fall back on. This is the business, yeah.

Chandrika: You have children?

Anil Pabari: Two daughters. Yeah. Although my daughters came slightly late, but they came straight after one after each other was literally 10 months apart.

Chandrika: OK. Yeah. Oh, ten months apart. Or fantastic, right. Yeah.

Anil Pabari: Yeah, two fantastic girls, yeah. Yes, especially the older one. The other one’s getting engaged tomorrow.

Chandrika: One is getting engaged and one is married already.

Anil Pabari: No, the other ones younger than that.

Chandrika: All righty. She's younger, right?

Anil Pabari: Right. My older one’s married. I always say I got four daughter.

Chandrika: Because the two are your brothers.

Anil Pabari: Yeah.

Chandrika: And you really look at your brother as your family?

Anil Pabari: Yeah, exactly. Because they always… we’ve seen them grow up together. They all four are so close.

Chandrika: Really good.

Anil Pabari: Yeah, and now she’s become a pharmacist. But I always wanted to push her away, like look you be on your own. And she looks after me. Since she was young. When I have fits, I normally cut my tongue…bite into my…and I bleed a lot…so. And she used to clean me, at that young age. So, she’s like -

Chandrika: A little mother. The little mother.

Anil Pabari: She is yeah. I always call her that. I always her my ma yeah.