Khatun Makani: Welsh Asian Heritage Project

Farah Allibhai  00:01

Farah Allibhai recording Mrs. Khatun Makani on the 27th of March, 2024. Khatun Masi, if you could just tell me your name and your date of birth and where you were born, please.

 

Khatun Makani  00:16

right. My name is Katun Faruk Makani. My date of birth is 17th of July 1945.

 

Farah Allibhai  00:29

That’s great, and where were you born?

 

Khatun Makani  00:30

In Fort Portal, Uganda.

 

Farah Allibhai  00:35

Okay, and how old were you when you came to the UK?

 

Khatun Makani  00:39

I was about 27/28 years old,

 

Farah Allibhai  00:44

So you'd basically grown up in Uganda and lived your early adult life there.

 

Khatun Makani  00:51

Yeah, yeah.

 

 

Farah Allibhai  00:53

Tell me about your life in Uganda, but before you do, I'm interested to know if you know were your parents born in Uganda?

 

Khatun Makani

How did my parents..? 

 

Farah Allibhai

Were your parents born in Uganda?

 

Khatun Makani  01:07

No, my father was born in Iran, and my mom, she was born in Pakistan/India.

 

Farah Allibhai  01:20

And if your dad, was he Indian or was he Iranian? 

 

Khatun Makani

No, Indian. 

 

Farah Allibhai

So do you know his story, how he went to Iran?

 

Khatun Makani  01:30

No, I don't know. He didn't go to Iran, he was born there, and then he came over here in Africa.

 

Farah Allibhai  01:40

So he was born in Iran, so his grandparent - his parents, must have traveled from India to Iran. He was born in Iran, and then he came to Uganda. 

 

Khatun Makani  01:51

He came to Uganda. 

 

Farah Allibhai

Do you know why? 

 

Khatun Makani

I don't know, really it's a mystery.

 

Farah Allibhai  01:57

It's a mystery, yeah, and then your mother as well? 

 

 

Khatun Makani  02:01

Yeah, my mother was in India. And, of course, I don't know, because we don't talk about these things, you know, in the family you see, so we don't know about it really.

 

Farah Allibhai  02:15

Isn't it interesting how we don't share our family histories, even mine. You just move and you just live wherever you are living, isn't it? 

 

Khatun Makani

That’s right, yeah. 

 

Farah Allibhai

So you're born in Uganda, and you grew up there, and you had your adult life. Can you tell us about your life in Uganda, what it was like there?

 

Khatun Makani  02:32

It was nice life, easy life. But when Idi Amin wanted to throw us out you know, he just threw us out, you know, with giving only 60 shillings per family and get out from here, you see, because I don't know what was into his head. You know, he wanted to have mixed marriages, forced mixed marriages, and the businesses all goes to African people and everything. Yet my dad, you know, of course, he had a small shop, you know and we were doing our living on a small shop, you know. So then how can we do our living, you see?

 

Farah Allibhai  03:20

And was that in Fort Portal? 

 

Khatun Makani

It was in Fort Portal, yes. 

 

Farah Allibhai

So you were born in Fort portal.

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah. 

 

Farah Allibhai

And you lived in Fort Portal?

 

Khatun Makani

Yes

 

Farah Allibhai

And your father had the small shop there.

 

Farah Allibhai

Yeah, and all your family depended on that one shop?

 

Khatun Makani

One shop. 

 

Farah Allibhai

And how many children were there?

 

 

 

Khatun Makani  03:37

My mother had 13 children. But one died, and one, of course, you know, it was still born. So we were 11 alive, you know, five sisters and six brothers.

 

Farah Allibhai  03:55

So that's a big family to support in one shop.

 

Khatun Makani  04:00

Yeah, over there you can afford it, you know. And my mom used to do cooking for everybody and everything, you see, and we could manage, you know. And she will grow all the vegetables and everything in our garden, in a big, big garden, so all the houses has got it. So we had banana trees and mango tree and oranges tree. And you say it and we had it. 

 

Farah Allibhai  04:27

Your family were very self-sufficient in feeding themselves. And  with your father's shop, was it a general store?

 

Khatun Makani  04:35

It was a, yeah, you know, general store, you know, selling everything, like sugar and salt and soap and water, all these small things you know which, which is necessary to use in the house.

 

Farah Allibhai  04:50

And who would come shopping in the shop was it Indians and Africans?

 

Khatun Makani  04:56

Africans, mainly.

 

Farah Allibhai  04:57

So your father had good working relationship with Africans then?

 

Khatun Makani  05:01

Oh yes, oh yes.

 

Farah Allibhai  05:03

And was it a good environment with a good friendships? Yes, yeah. And how about for yourself? Did you go to school?

 

Khatun Makani  05:11

I had to leave the school because to help my father in a shop, because when he go for lunch at home and everything. So of course, you know, he has to have a break. He was old person, you see, so he has to have a break. You know, he will go about half past 1 for food, and then he will relax and everything. Then he will come back in a shop about five o'clock, then six o'clock, we will shut the shop and come back home.

 

Farah Allibhai  05:42

So were you in the shop on your own?

 

Khatun Makani  05:45

Over there, yes.

 

Farah Allibhai  05:46

Was that unusual to have a woman in a shop? 

 

Khatun Makani

No, no. 

 

Farah Allibhai

And you found that you could do the shop quite fine on your own no problems. 

So what age did you leave school then?

 

Khatun Makani  06:00

Oh, I was about to say, 14/15,

 

Farah Allibhai  06:06

Which school did you go to there?

 

Khatun Makani  06:07

It was a public school. 

 

Farah Allibhai  06:10

Okay, it wasn't an Aga Khan school then?

 

Khatun Makani  06:13

No, there was no Aga Khan school. 

 

Farah Allibhai  06:14

Was it a mixed school did any Europeans go? Or was it African and Asians?

 

Khatun Makani  06:18

There are not, plenty of Africans, you know, but Asian were all mixed you see, yeah.

 

Farah Allibhai  06:25

Okay, and did they teach you English?

 

Khatun Makani  06:29

Not much, you see, not much, you know.

 

Farah Allibhai  06:32

So where did you pick up such good English? 

 

 

 

Khatun Makani  06:38

Well, I used to read books and so on, you see, and so on. And of course, you see, well, when I came in this country, that’s when I had picked up English properly you see. Otherwise, you know, I knew African and other languages. 

 

Farah Allibhai  06:59

What was the language that you spoke, the African language that you spoke?

 

Khatun Makani  07:04

In the shop over there?

 

Farah Allibhai  07:06

Yeah. 

 

Khatun Makani

African language.

 

Farah Allibhai

Yeah, what was it, does it have a name?

 

Khatun Makani  07:14

Rutooro

 

Farah Allibhai  07:16

Was that the same language that Fatmabai would speak and Nabuati?

 

 

Khatun Makani  07:21

That’s right

 

Farah Allibhai  07:42

So in Uganda, each region had different languages?

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah, yeah, 

 

Farah Allibhai

Ah okay, because Nabuati married an Ismaili, isn't it? She was African. 

 

Khatun Makani  07:52

Ugandan, because we lived in Uganda, but I was in Fort Portal, but Nabu, Kampala side, you see, so the Kampala side, they are all Wagandas, you see, and in my place, you know, Fort Portal, they're all Rutooro.  

 

 

Farah Allibhai  08:11

Rutooro. Okay, wow - can you speak any still, do you remember?

 

Khatun Makani  08:17

Jambo?

 

Farah Allibhai  08:21

Then maybe if you started talking to somebody, it might all come back, isn't it?

 

Khatun Makani  08:25

Yeah, yeah, if somebody's talking, you know, then it will come into my head, you know. But I'm 79 years old

 

Farah Allibhai  08:35

So you know, did you miss school when you went to work in the shop? 

 

Khatun Makani  08:40

I did miss school because I was so clever in school and needleworks and cooking and everything and maths, you see.

 

Farah Allibhai  08:50

Okay and so you, you left school to go and work in the shop. 

What did the other brothers and sisters do? 

 

Khatun Makani

They all went to school and so. 

 

Farah Allibhai

So you were the one who stayed behind...

 

Khatun Makani

With my dad. 

 

Farah Allibhai

And how long did you do that for? Did you do that up to the point of expulsion? 

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah, yeah. 

 

Farah Allibhai

So how is that for you as a young woman, you know, working in the shop, did you meet people, or did you feel isolated?

 

Khatun Makani  09:19

Well when I go to Jamatkhana and everything, you know, I will meet people and everything when there are some function, you know, in the evening, I will go there, you know, and I will meet people and so on. But I was rather, you know, my brothers and sisters have an education and well, one person has to work hard.

 

Farah Allibhai  09:42

Out of all 11 were you like one of the oldest? 

 

Khatun Makani  09:49

No I was just right in the middle

 

Farah Allibhai  09:51

Oh so the middle child. So being an Ismaili and having that community was very important then?

 

Khatun Makani  09:58

Oh yes, oh yes. We every day we went to Jamatkhana you know, in the evening and in the morning. And if we didn't go, then my dad will not shout at us or anything. So you're not going to Jamatkhana. No, today, I'm too tired. Oh, you don't want food today, do you then, you see, so that's okay, you know, if you don't want food, so if you don't come to Kano, you know, it's okay.

 

Farah Allibhai  10:26

Okay. So how early would you get up to go to Kano in the morning? 

 

Khatun Makani  10:32

Well Kano was just next door to us, nearly, you see, it was just to cross one road, and there was a Kano there.

 

Farah Allibhai  10:40

What time would you go in the morning?

 

Khatun Makani  10:43

In morning, at four o'clock we used to start you see.

 

Farah Allibhai  10:47

So you'd go at four and then come back and go to sleep?

 

Khatun Makani  10:50

No, we go over there, you see, Kano finishes about half five, and then you go home, you have breakfast and everything. And boys and girls, they all go to school and everything. My dad will go eight o'clock to the shop, you know. And there was one dog called Gohil, you know, she will always come to my dad,  to take my dad to the shop, you know, safely. And when she will take my dad to the shop, she will come back to our house and she will knock the door, literally knock the door, so that he is safe in the shop. So my mom will give her a chapati, you know, she will.

 

Farah Allibhai  11:39

But this wasn't your dog. 

 

 

Khatun Makani  11:41

No it was Dr Binji's dog 

 

Farah Allibhai  11:44

And Dr Binji was a neighbour?

 

Khatun Makani  11:50

Yeah he was a neighbour. 

 

Farah Allibhai  11:51

Okay  that's incredible, isn't it?

 

Khatun Makani  11:54

Yeah, it is. You know, my dad had a relationship with everybody, nicely, friendly relationship.

 

Farah Allibhai  12:03

And he himself was a religious person. 

 

Khatun Makani  12:05

Oh yeah, very religious.

 

Farah Allibhai  12:07

And so was your mother?

 

Khatun Makani  12:08

My mother was religious too, you know. But sometimes, of course, you know, because of the work, she couldn't come, you see. And but she will not forget her prayers at home.

 

Farah Allibhai  12:20

So what work did your mum do?

 

Khatun Makani  12:23

My mum, she used to help, sometimes, in the shop and doing the work and the cooking and everything, you know, for the people and everything.

 

Farah Allibhai  12:33

Would that be something that she would cook and give food away, or people buy, order food from her? 

 

Khatun Makani

They order the food. 

 

Farah Allibhai

And was that Indian food mostly?

 

 

Khatun Makani  12:42

Indian food, yes, yes, because it's big, big saucepans, you know, they want for weddings and for parties and whatnot and everything. 

 

Farah Allibhai  12:53

So this is where you get all your cooking skills Khatun masi. 

 

Khatun Makani  12:58

Yeah, thanks to my mum. 

 

Farah Allibhai

Expert chef. So what other memories do you have of Uganda? Did you go for driving? So did you buy food on the side of the road? What type of things?

 

Khatun Makani  13:10

We couldn't afford to buy the food and everything. Yeah, I didn't. That's why I didn't drive, because I didn't have time to do the drive. 

 

Farah Allibhai  13:20

Okay, so did you go to see movies.

 

Khatun Makani  13:22

Sometimes, yeah, in the weekend. 

 

Farah Allibhai  13:25

Were they English movies or Indian movies? 

 

Khatun Makani

No, Indian movies. 

 

Farah Allibhai

And was it mostly Indian people who would go to see the movies, or was it all different types of people?

 

Khatun Makani  13:36

No different type of people, but there are English movies coming through there you see, but I never went to the English movie, I wasn’t interested. 

 

Farah Allibhai  13:48

So on reflection, would you say you had a good life in Uganda? 

 

Khatun Makani  13:53

It was nice and easy life, you say. 

 

Farah Allibhai

You say easy but how was it easy?

 

Khatun Makani  

But  it wasn't safe you know, it wasn't safer, like we are safe here, you see, nowadays you are not, you see, but of course, you know, yeah, it is easy like, because everybody can afford to have servants, you know, they can do your garden, they can sweep outside and everything. They can just wipe off your floors and everything you see.

 

Farah Allibhai  14:25

So in that sense, it was easy for us Indians because we could afford to have home help?

 

Khatun Makani  14:33

Not Indians, only Africans.

 

Farah Allibhai  14:35

No, I mean, like it was easy, easy for us Indians because we asked Africans to be our home help.

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah, yeah.

 

Farah Allibhai

Yeah, okay, but safe, you say it's safer here, how do you mean it's safer here?

 

Khatun Makani  14:50

It was safer here. You know, you can go out and about, you know, in the night and everything, not now you see, but that time when we can, it was nice and safe, you know. But now everywhere you see is hooligans, you know.

 

Farah Allibhai  15:05

So it wasn't that safe when you were living in Uganda to go out and about, was it?

 

Khatun Makani  15:10

Oh, no, no. They will rob you up, you see. 

 

Farah Allibhai  

The local people?

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah, yeah, African people.

 

Farah Allibhai  15:18

Is that because you were Indian, and they just thought you had more money. 

 

Khatun Makani  15:24

Well, the thing is, you know, they will rob anybody they get. You know, they won't see that how she or he is rich, you know, or whatever, no, whatever they get, you know, they get. 

 

Farah Allibhai  15:36

Would they just be robbing from Indians, or would it be white people and Africans as well? 

 

Khatun Makani  15:43

Very few white people you see, not many white people. They're full of Indian people, you see, but African it was full of Africans, you see.

 

Farah Allibhai  15:58

Yeah, okay

 

 

 

Farah Allibhai  00:00

Farah Ali by recording Mrs. Faruk Makani, part two. Your brothers and sisters, they all went to school.

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah. 

 

Farah Allibhai

What did they qualify? What was the education like there? 

 

Khatun Makani  00:25

Yeah, my one brother, he was an accountant. He qualified for accountancy.

 

Farah Allibhai  00:33

Was that in Fort Portal?

 

Khatun Makani

In Fort Portal, yes. 

 

Farah Allibhai

So he did his education all throughout, Fort Portal. 

 

Khatun Makani  00:41

Yes, and one brother, of course, he was becoming a mechanic, and he was qualified with mechanic. And others were just young ones, you see, still in school when we were thrown out.

 

Farah Allibhai  01:00

Okay, so tell me about the time of expulsion. What were your memories of it?  Do you remember a change in the atmosphere in Fort Portal just around that time? You know, were you aware of it?

Khatun Makani  01:14

Yeah, well it was very tense. You know, it was very tense, you see, so everybody wanted to just be alive and get out, you see, and no argument with the African peoples or anything, just get out. You know, whenever you get the plane ticket, you get out.

 

Farah Allibhai  01:33

How did you hear about the expulsion that Idi Amin wanted us out?

 

Khatun Makani  01:38

It was announced anywhere, everywhere, you know, in Kano and everywhere you see.

 

Farah Allibhai  01:44

And what was the announcement? How was that made?

 

Khatun Makani  01:51

As soon as you know, you get chance, you know, just try to, you know, be safe and everything. And when you get chance, you know, just go you know. And whatever God gives you, you know, whatever you need in your life, you will get it.

 

Farah Allibhai  02:11

So would you say that, were you still in the shop at the time when the expulsion was announced?

 

Khatun Makani  02:18

No, I heard it in the Kano. 

 

Farah Allibhai  02:20

No I meant, were you still working in the shop? 

 

Khatun Makani

Oh yes. 

 

Farah Allibhai

So how was it when you were meeting Africans in the shop? Were they, was it still business as usual, or was there a lot of tension between you and them?

 

Khatun Makani  02:30

There was no tension. There were few, you know, who comes, you know, and they were aggravating us, you know, and so on, and but you know, others will come, you know, and they'll say, don't create here go away from here, you see.

 

Farah Allibhai  02:49

They were advising you to leave?

 

Khatun Makani  02:51

No, they were telling those people, you know, who were just threatening us, so they were just telling because my dad had a relationship with everybody, African, Indian, white people, everybody.

 

Farah Allibhai  03:12

So how long was it after the announcement that you were able to get your papers?

 

Khatun Makani  03:17

Well there was the plane from, I think Red Cross, you see, and we had a chance to get in so the whole some family got in inside there. 

 

Farah Allibhai  03:29

Did your father have a passport or papers? Was he under British Protectorate? 

 

Khatun Makani  03:32

We had all British passport, we had. 

 

Farah Allibhai  03:35

So that wasn't a problem for you then?

 

Khatun Makani

No, no. 

 

Farah Allibhai

And what was your journey like to the airport, did you experience anything dramatic or traumatic, or was your exit very smooth?

 

Khatun Makani  03:49

Very, it was traumatic, you know, because he said, where will gunfire from now, where will gunfire from now? So we were not with ourselves, really. We just wanted to get out and get to the airport.

 

Farah Allibhai  04:03

Did you say gunfire? 

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah? 

 

Farah Allibhai  

So that's what I mean, like they were the shots being fired, into the air?

 

Khatun Makani  04:12

But of course, you know... no, then you shoot your car. And of course, you know, they want to rob them and so on.

 

Farah Allibhai  04:22

Did you see anybody get robbed, or anybody's cars get shot?

 

 

 

Khatun Makani  04:26

Because, I don't remember, because we were not with ourselves, you know, I see we were so frightened and so on. We just wanted to get us safe, you know, to the airport.  And money didn't matter to us, you know, 60 shillings is nothing for 11/12, people, you see, but we said no we have to get out. We will see what is happening. 

 

Farah Allibhai  05:00

You left with 60 shillings.

 

Khatun Makani

60 shillings per family.

 

Farah Allibhai

And did you have any suitcases? 

 

Khatun Makani  05:03

Yeah, suitcases, one, one suitcase everybody has.

 

Farah Allibhai  05:06

So that whole family had one suitcase, you were allowed to take one suitcase. 

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah.

 

Farah Allibhai

And then what happened at the airport?

 

Khatun Makani  05:15

Airport was, of course, Red Cross standing there, and police were there too some, and there was no problem at airport, really.

 

Farah Allibhai  05:25

So that was the British Red Cross, 

 

Khatun Makani  

Yeah. 

 

Farah Allibhai

And was it, were there British people working at the Red Cross, or was it African Red Cross? 

 

Khatun Makani  

No, no. British people. 

 

Farah Allibhai

Okay, so there was a different atmosphere with them taking you onto the plane?

 

 

Khatun Makani  05:44

They were guarding us all.

 

Farah Allibhai  05:45

They were guarding you all. What was your arrival like?

 

Khatun Makani  05:52

Arrival was nice. You know, they did welcome us nicely. And we were in the camp. I think we were in plaster...

 

Farah Allibhai  06:06

Plasterdown.

 

Khatun Makani

Plasterdown.

 

Farah Allibhai  06:10

Yeah the same as the Dharamshis, and the Allibhai’s, right?

 

Khatun Makani

That's right, 

 

Farah Allibhai

Did you fly into Stansted?

 

Khatun Makani  06:23

You know, I don't even remember that. 

 

Farah Allibhai  06:26

So do you remember taking the coach to Plasterdown?

 

Khatun Makani  06:31

That's right, yeah we went in a coach

 

Farah Allibhai  06:34

And did you feel like very tired after your journey? Because it was a long flight.

 

Khatun Makani  06:43

We had all the beds in a big, big halls, you know, army camp and everything. Oh, and we all were sleeping on that, you know, what also we said, thank God for that, you see.

 

Farah Allibhai  06:55

So you were, you were on bed camps in a big hall, all sleeping everyone, yeah, and how, and was that for how you slept all the time that you were at the camp?

 

 

Khatun Makani  07:07

You know, my family, of course, we got out of the camp, you know, in, I think, in end of November, but before that, me and my brother, we started working from the camp.

 

Farah Allibhai  07:25

Okay, so you just reminded me, what month did you arrive in the camp? Do you remember what month you left Uganda?

 

Khatun Makani  07:39

I think it was September. September? No, it was October. I think it was October.

 

Farah Allibhai  07:47

Yeah, tell me a little bit about your life at the camp then.

 

Khatun Makani  07:50

Life in a camp was nice. Food was provided, and what and not. And of course, they were all Asian people in the region, most of them, and they want Indian food and everything, they wouldn't get used to with the roasted dinners and everything so well camp’s head, she said, you know, we don't know how to cook that much Indian food. So will tell me anybody so my brother, he was looking after all the like voluntary, looking after people. So he asked my mum, Allibhai’s wife, you know, Karima, and a few ladies, you know. And they say, yeah, we are ready to cook, you know, no problem, you see, we have to get the stuff and everything. So my brother said to the head of that camp, you know and he said, yeah, you give me the list, you go and get it, you know. So they brought the stuff and everything, and all the ladies gathered up, you know, and started cooking. But me and my brother, we started our job. You know it was... we started first with a chicken factory. We were feathering them up and everything you see. And then, of course, it was nearer to Christmas, so there was Turkey business, you see, so it was Turkey factory, so me and my brother, then we went to Turkey factory, you see, but we, we've been paying our staying over there because we are working, you know, and we didn't mind, you know, it is fair, you see.

 

Farah Allibhai  09:41

You got your wages and you, did you give money back to the camp then for staying there? 

 

Khatun Makani  09:45

Yeah, not all of it, you know, not all of it, but they will say you will have to pay that much money from your pay wages. And we used to have money left for us, you know, to spend and so on.

 

Farah Allibhai  09:59

Were there quite a few people who were going out to work from the camp. 

 

Khatun Makani  10:03

There were few people and the wherever we were working, their box body will come and pick us up from the camp and take us to the work, and then they will come and drop us back into the camp.

 

Farah Allibhai  10:20

So your, you actually got used to British life quite quickly then? 

 

Khatun Makani

Oh yeah

 

Farah Allibhai

And you were very supported in doing that.

 

Khatun Makani  10:26

Oh yes. You know, when you work and eat food, you know it, it is so nice, you know. And of course, you know, if you get the money, you know, from the council and everything, and you eat, you know, oh God, you know why we are in this stage, you see, we say, you see, so we wanted to be independent,

 

Farah Allibhai  10:48

Yeah, so you weren't reliant on anyone in that sense, and that made you feel better.

 

Khatun Makani  10:53

Oh yes, oh yes, definitely.

 

Farah Allibhai  10:56

And how long were you in the camp for then?

 

Khatun Makani  11:00

Until November, I think end of November, because we were told that there will be lot of snow and everything, and it will be very cold. So of course, there was a house coming into the Scotland. It was a new place was built up, you see, and we agreed, you know, just to be independent, you know, and go to the spot and you know, doesn't matter, you see, as long as we have got our own things and everything to do. And we were happy to go, you see. But unfortunately, we couldn't stay there long, because my mum was very ill over there, because she was very cold. And I was working in a Marks and Spencer, you know, as a machinist, and I had to give up my job you see, because my mum was, we wanted to move my mum into the warmer country, so we decided to go to either Leicester or Birmingham. So we decided to go to Birmingham we got a house over there so we exchanged it.

 

Farah Allibhai  12:21

So was that done through the council, you exchanged a house through the council? 

 

Khatun Makani  12:27

No it wasn't the council. The first one was council house, yeah. But the second one, my brother went to Birmingham, and he looked for the house and he hired the house.

 

Farah Allibhai  12:38

Okay, so he went. So you were renting your first house very quickly then?

 

Khatun Makani

Oh yes, yeah. 

 

 

Farah Allibhai

And became as a family, became very independent.

 

Khatun Makani  12:45

Oh yes, yeah.

 

Farah Allibhai  12:46

For your mum's health. 

 

Khatun Makani

Yes. 

 

Farah Allibhai

And your father was with you at the time as well?

 

Khatun Makani  12:51

No, my father died in Uganda.

 

Farah Allibhai  12:53

So he died before you left, before expulsion?

 

Khatun Makani  

Yes, yes. 

 

Farah Allibhai

So when you were in the... you still had the shop after he passed?

 

Khatun Makani  13:02

Yeah, for a little while you see, after he had to go innit.

 

Farah Allibhai  13:07

Yeah, but up to the point of expulsion it was still a family business, yes, yeah. Okay, so your mom was here with 11 children, widowed?

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah. 

 

Farah Allibhai

Okay, and how did that work out for her, with her ill health and moving to Birmingham, you said.

 

Khatun Makani  13:26

She was all right, she was happy you see, she was happy even because her family was together, so she was happy you see.

 

Farah Allibhai  13:34

And did you all find jobs in Birmingham?

 

Khatun Makani  13:38

Yeah, my brother, you know, he didn't get job in Birmingham, so he moved to Worcester, you know. And my uncle used to live in Worcester. He settled down in Worcester. So he said, yeah, tell Manzoor to come and stay with me, you know and job is here you see. My brother went for a job, and then he was staying at my uncle's house, and he was playing him like a rent, yeah, like a lodger. 

 

Farah Allibhai  14:11

So your uncle was also a refugee then?

 

Khatun Makani  14:16

Yeah

 

Farah Allibhai  14:17

Your entire family came to the UK then?

 

Khatun Makani  14:20

Yes, because we all had British passports, so we are entitled, we were entitled to come to here.

 

Farah Allibhai  14:27

And at this point, were you missing Uganda at all, or were you quite happy to settle? 

 

Khatun Makani  14:33

No, we were quite happy to settle, because we were settling down. So we said, okay, we make our new life up here now, you see, and that’s it so we were quite settled anyway.

 

Farah Allibhai  14:46

So even though you didn't come to Wales directly, you found yourself coming to Wales. Can you tell us how that happened?

 

Khatun Makani  14:55

Because I got married. Dharamshi, of course, my uncle was here in Cardiff, and he saw the person you see. And he said, you know, Uncle, where is from Worcester is coming here. Come here with him you see, and you see you know, if you like him, you see. So I came here, you know, from Birmingham for a weekend, and I saw Farooq, you know. And I said, yeah, if he is deaf, you know. So, so what, you know, I will put up with it, you see and we decided to get married.

 

Farah Allibhai  15:38

So it's quite a big thing to marry somebody who's deaf when you're hearing, especially back then in the 70s, when it wasn't so well catered for, so how did you find your communication with your new husband?

 

Khatun Makani  15:52

Actually, he really took well with me, you know, because I will do hand action and my lips. I will talk slowly with him and everything so he can understand me. Then Ma and Bapa, you know of course, they said look he is just married to her, you know. And he can't understand us, you know. And he can understand everything of her, you see. So I say, yeah, because one, because I am talking slowly, slowly with him, and I'm looking doing the action with the hand, because deaf people, you know, they want this, you know. But soon I will be going on a classes so he can read lips, my lips, you know, and so on, and I can understand him, too.

 

Farah Allibhai  16:46

So Ma and Bappa were your husband's parents. 

 

Khatun Makani

They were my husband's parents. 

 

Farah Allibhai

Okay, so, so both you and your husband went to class to lip read and to do a bit of signing, is that correct?

 

Khatun Makani  17:01

My husband, whenever he had a chance, you know, because he had a business of a garage. And of course, whenever he had chance, he came with me, you see. So we were both, you know, in the same class, you see. But otherwise, I will go every day and spend one hour, you know, to just to stay with my husband

 

Farah Allibhai  17:27

So you learnt how to express yourself and to talk to him as a deaf person.

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah, yeah. 

 

Farah Allibhai  

And you found that facility here in Cardiff?

 

Khatun Makani  17:35

Yes. It was in a Roth clinic. 

 

Farah Allibhai  17:39

Okay, was it something they did every day then? 

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah, yeah.

 

Farah Allibhai

So was it a class or, how was it there?

 

Khatun Makani  17:50

It was fine. It was fine. 

 

 

Farah Allibhai  17:54

Okay, and you say your husband had a business despite being deaf, he was a...

 

Khatun Makani  17:59

Yeah, he had a business, you know, he had a garage himself on Pen-Y-Lan Road. And on Albany Road, shell petrol station, he bought that petrol station, and he was working fine, you see.

 

 

Farah Allibhai  18:13

He himself was a mechanic?

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah 

 

Farah Allibhai

So he went to college as well. 

 

Khatun Makani  18:18

He went to college in London, you know, before we got married, before we came in this country.

 

Farah Allibhai  18:25

He didn't come as a refugee then? 

 

Khatun Makani  18:29

No, he had a flat up here, rented flat. And of course, you know mine, Bapa, you know, they said my son lives in Cardiff, you know, we will go to him,

 

Farah Allibhai  18:39

And they were refugees?

 

Khatun Makani  18:43

Yeah they were refugees. So they came to Farooq, you see.

 

Farah Allibhai  18:46

Oh, I see, so your husband was over here studying, doing his mechanics, whilst his parents were in Uganda? Then when it came to expulsion, they also came to Cardiff, and then that's how the family came together? Okay, so is there anything you'd like to tell us? Any memories of your early life in Wales? How did you settle?

 

Khatun Makani  19:07

Yeah then, of course, you know, Farooq was, of course, renting the flat in Claude Road. And I said, No, I can't live in a flat, you know, with all people are there, you know, and me to go with my gown, you know, downstairs, and everybody sees me and everything. I don't like it. We were to look for the house, you see. So we found the house, you know, in Claude Road, you see, it was 6 Claude Road. So we bought that house, you see. And house was three stories and everything, and there was a granny flat. And then we decided to convert granny flat into one hall, and we made a Jamatkhana over there.

 

Farah Allibhai  20:00

So that was for the Ismaili community? 

 

Khatun Makani  20:04

For the Ismaili community to come in the evening and do the prayers. And then, of course, you know, we stayed over there, Jamatkhana stayed there for 25 to 27 years.

 

Farah Allibhai  20:18

So when did you first come to Cardiff? Do you remember when that was? When did you get married? When did you come over?

 

Khatun Makani  20:25

I got married in ‘74 and ‘75, early ‘75 we bought 6 Claude Road, and I was expecting. So both of my children got born into that 6 Claude Road. And of course, then, of course, after a while, of course, you know, of course, my father in law died, and then we looked after my mother in law and children when they go to nursery, I go to work, you see, so Farooq will be coming and looking after mum, you know, and so on. I used to work in a post office as a clerk, and children are in nursery. So I was working until only three o'clock, then I can come and pick up children from this nursery and so on or from the school, and then go home and then do the cooking and everything for children and everything, then give them bath and whatnot and everything.

 

Farah Allibhai  21:37

So happy family life?

 

Khatun Makani  21:38

Happy family life. Yeah, it didn't bother me that I got a deaf husband or I was my mother in law with me. No, my mother in law was like a mother for me.

 

Farah Allibhai  21:52

Okay, so when you first came in ‘74, do you remember the Jamatkhana at 22 Cyfarthfa Street?

 

Khatun Makani  22:00

I did. I did. 

 

Farah Allibhai  22:03

And was it every day or once a week?

 

Khatun Makani  22:08

I don't really remember, but I remember because I couldn't come out all the time, you see, so I was going only on Fridays or Sundays, you see. And of course, you know Fridays, of course, it was in Parade, and we used to hire a hall there, and rest of the time, you know, it was at Cyfarthfa Street and well... but I didn't go every day I would say that, you know.

 

Farah Allibhai  22:44

What are your memories of that early Jamaatkhanna at Cyfarthfa Street?

Khatun Makani  22:53

It was in a front room you know, we were, you see? And of course, Karimabai, we just took everything out from the front room and everything, and she made it like a nice, small mosque, you see. And we feel, we felt like it was a real mosque, really.

 

Farah Allibhai  23:14

Yeah, you were happy. Were there a lot of Ismailis coming to Jamatkhana?

 

Khatun Makani  23:20

There were not many. But in Parade, there were plenty, you know, because maybe they were thinking that, oh, the place is very small, you see, and so on. So we will go for on Friday, you know to Parade. But they did come to Karimabai’s house.

 

Farah Allibhai  23:36

What are your memories of the Parade then? What do you remember of 28 The Parade?

 

Khatun Makani  23:44

28th The Parade, we had a nice time anyway, you see nice time. You see when we have got big, big days like Khushali and everything. Of course, Mooneeram will give us a hall you know downstairs too, so we can do our all the dancing and everything, you know, Indian dancing, and everything there, and we have food and whatnot and everything, samosas and kachoris and safe energy is there you see, we enjoyed it. 

 

Farah Allibhai  24:17

What do you remember Mr. Mooneeram?

 

Khatun Makani  24:21

Mooneeram was quite kind and everything, and he was like a mixed up with our community very well. Yeah very well, he’s a very nice person. 

 

Farah Allibhai  24:35

So how did you feel about Jamatkhana being at your house, at the back of, at the back of your house for almost over 20 years?

 

Khatun Makani  24:44

It was it was nice. I was happy. I was happy, you see, but it was in the back of the house, so everybody was enjoying it, you know, every day was Khano, you see? So everybody was enjoying it and, well, we had it till my mother in law died, in Claude Road, my father in law died. Then we decided that house is getting too big. No, then Jamatkhana moved away from there, because we got a proper Jamatkhana. And of course, you know, we said, now, house is too big, granny flat, and 3 storeys, only two boys and us, you know. So Rahim didn't want to come out of this house, you see but we told Rahim, you know that? Okay, you know well, if you can find the money, we to buy right out the house over there, in somewhere, you know smaller one, then you can have the house, you see. So he said, okay, we find out you see, and so on. And through the solicitor, we got the house, and Rahim got the money and everything. We bought this house right out.

 

Farah Allibhai  26:04

So Rahim is son

 

Khatun Makani  26:05

Rahim is my older son, yes.

 

Farah Allibhai  26:08

How many children do you have?

 

Khatun Makani  26:10

I had two children. And Rahim was DJing, and he was very famous DJ anyway, you see, everybody knew Rahim, you see, but and he could manage to do it. I say, will you be able to pay the mortgage and whatnot and everything? So he said, yes.

 

 

Farah Allibhai  00:19

Tell us about your life now, here in Wales, because you've had, you've lived a lot of your life here, isn't it now?

 

Khatun Makani  00:30

Yeah. I came in this house, you know when, 2006 so nearly 18 years.

 

Farah Allibhai

And you live here on your own. 

 

 

Khatun Makani

I live on my own yeah.

 

Farah Allibhai  00:44

So when did you, when were you widowed? When did your husband pass? 

 

Khatun Makani  00:49

My husband died in 2010

 

Farah Allibhai  00:52

So you've been living on your own for 15 years?

 

Khatun Makani  00:56

No, then Rahim came here with me because he finished with his girlfriend. So he came, and I told him, you know, don't get any flat or anything, come and stay here, because I am all alone, and there are two rooms over there, you know, so you stay here, you see. So he said, are you sure? I said, of course, if not, then I wouldn't have told you, you see. So anyway, you see, so he came here, you see, and she went with his mother, her mother.

 

Farah Allibhai  01:31

And how do you find being on your own? Is Rahim still with you?

 

Khatun Makani  01:36

No. Rahim died in ‘21 you see, it was 9th of ‘21, 9th of February ‘21, he had a massive heart attack upstairs. And then, of course, you know, I heard the noises and everything. So I knocked his door, you know, and I asked him, Rahim, Rahim, why you are doing this? Still your gym here in the room, you see, you know, what is the time. So there was no answer, then I went back in my room again after a little while, you know, again, the noise came. I said, oh, I'm going to open the door you know and see what is he up to, you see, when I went over there, he was fast asleep like that. The door was leaking the... his back and everything, that what can I do for you, you see. And he was sweating up, and I just went and shook him up, you see, and I said to him, Rahim, Rahim - there's no answer. I say oh my God, you know, I went quickly downstairs, you know, and called paramedic, you see, that time, covid was very strongly, you know. And paramedics came, you see, and then I called Ramzan from Bridgend you see, paramedics came, then Ramzan came. 

 

Farah Allibhai

Ramzan is your other son?

Khatun Makani

Ramjee is my younger son who was working in police. And of course, you know, I first, I phoned up to paramedic, you know, then I phoned Ramzan. So Ramzan, from the way, you know, he phoned up to Mez’s, you know, Mez’s - Karimabai’s son. And, of course, Mez was here in no time you see. But by the time Ramzan came, paramedics were already here, so they couldn't see Rahim, you see, or anything you see. And well, they say, we have to take him to the hospital. So I said, well, if you are making him better, yeah take him now. So I gave him the permission to take him away.

 

Farah Allibhai  04:04

So that was quite traumatic and stressful for your son, because we were in lockdown, it was Covid and he had a heart attack and then he sadly passed after that.

 

Khatun Makani  04:15

But when he was... had that heart attack afterwards, Ramzan's girlfriend stayed with me overnight here, and the next day, my brother said, you know, this is what has happened. Rachel has been staying with my sister and Rachel had covid, you know, and very bad cold and everything. And my sister said, go home. You see, I will be all right. There are plenty people around her, around me, so I will be all right. You know, she will be all right. So she wouldn't listen, you know, she stayed overnight with me and , the next day, you know, I ended up in the hospital with covid,

 

Farah Allibhai  05:05

So, yeah, this is the problem with lockdown, and covid wasn't the best intention. So whilst your son was in hospital, you were as well, 

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah 

 

Farah Allibhai

Luckily, you were recovered and you were able. And then, very sadly, Ramzan passed as well.

 

Khatun Makani  05:23

Ramzan passed away, within 15 days, Ramzan passed away, you see Ramzan passed away on the 25th of February ‘21 and Rahim went on 9th of February ‘21 so within 15 days, I lost two sons.

 

Farah Allibhai  05:47

But you've had such a big story, isn't it such a big story, and you're still here.

 

Khatun Makani  05:55

Parents should not bury their children. Now only the memory is with me here. Now, I'm all alone you know and that’s it but I want to stay alone. Don't want anybody near me.

 

Farah Allibhai  06:22

I think this is your independence, isn't it, and it's your strength.

 

Khatun Makani

Yeah, yeah. 

 

Farah Allibhai

And where do you get your strength from? 

 

Khatun Makani

From God

 

Farah Allibhai

Because you are so incredibly strong.

 

Khatun Makani  06:31

God is making me strong, and he's giving me strength. Yeah.

 

Farah Allibhai  06:37

Thank you very much.