Zahir Dharamshi was born in Mbarara, Uganda, in 1953 and fondly remembers a childhood playing in swamps, going to the cinema, and eating fried cassava and chutney in a place called ‘Deejays’. His parents were born in Uganda, and his father was a teacher in Rwentobo, where he also went to school before moving to Kampala and then Kabale.  He was 18 at the expulsion and arrived at Stansted Airport on 15 October 1972. He was a refugee at Plasterdown Camp, Plymouth.  The family settled in Cardiff on 30 November 1972, and he remembers the kindness of Mary Hilliard – ‘Aunty Mary’ – who prepared their house with a lit fire, food, furniture and was a support throughout their lives. This interview is over two separate audio recordings. Transcription was aided by Otter.ai.   

Recording 1: Interview with Zahir Dharamshi by Farah Allibhai

Sat, Jul 06, 2024 2:17PM • 40:16

SUMMARY KEYWORDS: people, cardiff, uganda, remember, moved, dad, education, kampala, wales, called, place, live, family, dear friend, asians, asian, days, college, shops, work

SPEAKERS: Zahir Dharamshi, Farah Allibhai

 Farah Allibhai  00:01Farah Allibhai, 21st of March 2024, interviewing Mr. Zahir Dharamshi Zahir Dharamshi  00:11Hello, my name is Zahir Dharamshi. I was born on the 10th of July 1954, in a place called Mbarara in Uganda, which was in the Nkole district. Farah Allibhai  00:25And can you tell me some of your memories, early memories of life in Uganda? Zahir Dharamshi  00:32Right. My parents were based in a place called Ntungamo, which again, was in the Nkole district. I went to school, my dad was a teacher. And he taught me in a place called Rwentobo where there was about 15 of us, as his pupils, we had the prayer hall next door and the school next door. So they were all interlinked. And the place where I went to school in Rwentobo, dad was the teacher there and there was 8 or 9 families. And most of them were all shopkeepers. And from there then once dad had finished teaching, we moved to a place called Mbarara where I went to school for a short period of time. And then I moved to Kampala and went to the Aga Khan primary school when I was 11, so that would have been 1965. And it was the Aga Khan Primary School and then once the primary education was finished, I went to the Aga Khan secondary school again in Kampala. But as for memories as a child, it was wonderful because according to Sir Winston Churchill, I think it was said that Uganda was the pearl of Africa. And where we live, it was extremely fertile. There was no discrimination as such between the black and the Asians, not from my point of view anyway, because a very dear friend of mine, who's black, whether you can use that term or not, I don't know. Was Kenneth and I used to go visit his parents and he used to come and visit my parents. And I could speak the language as well. So we used to greet Kenneth’s dad, in the traditional African way. We used to... some of the memories I remember Kenneth and me crossing a swamp, going across to the other side of the swamp and our parents were quite desperate trying to find us. And I remember having a bit of a slap from my dad for disappearing into the swamp and not telling them where we're going because they were quite dangerous, the swamps. But besides that, school was fun. I was never one for missing school because I loved school. It was a wonderful place to be. We used to be a mixture there was Asian kids, black kids, that were European children as well. And we all went to school together. With my class, there must have been about 25-30 of us in the secondary school. And some of the teachers I remember we had Mr. Opeal, who's our geography teacher, Mrs. Kabengye, who was our biology teacher, there was Miss Bridge and Mr. McCourt was the headmaster. Mr. Zekkan was our chemistry teacher. So I remember all those teachers and it was, it was a wonderful upbringing. Dad was a teacher, mum was a housewife, so that is how it was. Education wise, all that was fine. But the flip side of the coin was that education was fine, but you had to pay for it. If you’re from a poor family, then obviously there was no national health so there was no medical facilities available, at least you paid for it. Opticians weren't free, dentists weren't free. So everything had to be paid for. What else can I remember? Yes. I mean, we'd never missed school. But I remember in Kampala, we used to go to the Odeon cinema on a Saturday watching the matinees. Can't think of any... there was four cinemas. There was the Odeon, the Apollo I think but I'm not too sure about that. And when I was staying in Uganda, we used to call it a hostel but he was a boarding school. And we used to go for our fried cassava and chutney in a place called Deejays. It was D.E.E.J.A.Y.S and next door to that there was a sweet mart like this Asian sweet shops you see in places like Leicester and Birmingham, and obviously you see some of them in Cardiff as well.  So the secondary education finished in 1972, not quite but I’d just about finished. And President Idi Amin, there was an edict from him saying that all the Asians are to leave Uganda within 90 days. I was 18. And at that time, we were living in a place called Kabale where dad, excuse me, was doing accounts for Somali brothers. And we lived in Kabale there was a prayer house there, but it was the same prayer house. Kampala was the same so we used to go to the prayer house on a regular basis. In Kampala, we used to go to the prayer house on a Friday because in the boarding school, there was a prayer house there in a room set up for prayers. So between Saturday and Thursday that is when we used to go for our prayers. And on a Friday we used to go to the main Jamatkhana in Kampala. So the edict was issued 90 days, Asians had to leave. Dad was a British passport holder, but it was a British protected person. He wasn't a British citizen as such. So Dad had to get all the papers done. That was me, my younger brother, who is four years older than me, Moez and Shanaz, my little sister who is 11 years younger than me. So the papers have to be done. And we moved to Kampala, we stayed with my aunt while we were in sort of trying to get transition papers and as to when we will be leaving Kampala. It was quite a scary time because the military personnel wasn't very nice at all. There was, people were robbed. People’s shops were taken over people's cars were taken off them, jewellery was taken off women. People are threatened to be shot. I remember when we left Kabale to go to Kampala that there was checkpoints on the way, there was checkpoints every 10, 15, 20 miles where they wanted to know, the military personnel, as to what was in your case, what you were taking with you, how much money you had. I mean, I remember when we left Uganda that we had the case of clothes each and 50 pounds between a family of five so that was mum, dad, me, my younger brother and my younger sister. We flew from Entebbe, which was the international airport just on the outskirts of Kampala on the 15th October 1972. We landed at Stansted Airport and it was a horrible, horrible day. It was dark. It was dismal. It was wet. And we are carrying this huge overcoats, which we never really needed in Uganda. And we are all herded onto buses and taken to a camp in Greenwich where we had to queue up for our bedding. It was an army camp so there were billets there. So it was like what you see in the films where we queued up for our bedding and stuff. Later on, then we had to queue up for food without trays and stuff. It wasn't a horrible time. In a sense. It was a fun time it was going to be a different kind of adventure. And the following day, then we were herded - herded is probably not the right word. But we went onto the train. And we went to Plymouth where we were taken to a camp called Plasterdown, if my memory serves me right. It was an American army base camp in the Second World War I think it was but all the facilities were there and people were there. We moved in there on... like I said it's either the 16th or the 17th of October we moved into Plasterdown .There was quite a few families, the Allibhai family was there, there was the Katun – what is Katun’s second name Mehboob. It will probably come to me. So their family was there, and we the ones who had moved in first. And when the new arrivals arrived, we used to give them a helping hand to settle in. People from Plymouth who had restaurants and stuff took some of the women and some of the men for work. We went to school in Tavistock and I remember Penny Jones, who become a dear friend but I lost contact with her she was in the same school that we went into in Tavistock. So that was in the camp and stuff. And it was, it was quite an adventurous time in that camp as well, because we didn't get up to any mischief. But all the facilities there, there was cooking facilities women used to cook. There was all bathrooms, hot water. There's medical facilities that had been set up for people. We were there for six weeks. And Dad was asked where he wanted to go or what part of the country would he like to move to? There were no preferences and Dad was told that what about Cardiff, and I remember, I think Dad came to Cardiff, with Suderubhai, Suderu Allibhai, they’d come to Cardiff together to look at accommodation. And we moved into number three Allen Street, which is just off city road in Cardiff, on the 30th of November 1972 and... Farah Allibhai  10:59Just before we talk more about your settlements, and in Wales in Cardiff, and I'm just very curious, when you said you spoke to Kenneth's father... Zahir DharamshiSorry, whose father? Farah AllibhaiKenneth's father, your friend it back in Uganda. Zahir DharamshiOh, Kenneth, yes. Farah AllibhaiSo in what language? Would you greet him Zahir Dharamshi  11:18In the traditional Nkole language, which was Kinyankole. Farah Allibhai  11:22And was that something you were familiar with?  Zahir Dharamshi  11:26Yes, because I spoke it, I mean I was brought up with it because all the education was done in English, under the British hospice. I remember my O level papers are set by the University of Cambridge. So all the education was done in English. So English, in a sense, was the first language. We spoke Kutchi and Gujarati at home. Kinyankole, I picked it up as you went along, I suppose you all pick up languages, if you listen to it on a regular basis. So Kenneth’s father, I used to speak to him in Kinyankole.  Farah Allibhai  11:58So it sounds like that they were actually a mix of nationalities as far as teachers were concerned, during your schooling, a mix of students, African, Asian, European, as you said. So what was the feeling like just before expulsion, because it seems like there was quite an idyllic scenario there. Zahir Dharamshi  12:18I mean it was but I think what had happened was, it became quite toxic, toxic as in, not from the normal people but from people being afraid, basically, of the army, what the army doing, what the police were doing. What Idi Amin was up to because he was not this is my opinion, obviously, not the nicest of persons. And people's, like I said people's livelihoods were taken, taken off and people’s shops were taken off them. People had to leave because, I mean, obviously our heritage is Indian and my grandparents from both sides, from mum's side and dad's side, moved to Uganda during the colonial days or during the days of the Raj. And people made their homes there, Dad was more than Uganda mum was born in Uganda so was I, Moez and Shanaz. So that was our hope, we might have been of Asian heritage. But again, this is my opinion, I'm an Asian, but I'm an Africa, because I was... my parents were born in Africa and I was born in Africa. So my heritage, is some of it is Asian yes, because my grandparents were Asian, mum and dad were Asian. But I was born in Uganda, Uganda was my home. So I classify myself as an African ultimately, might not be black. But I still classify myself as African. And like I said, you talk about things as life goes on. whether it happens or not, it depends what you believe in. Wales has been my home for 50 years. Because we'd come to Britain, I was 18. And my fervent wish is that when I die, I want to be buried in Wales. But I want my soul to go back to Africa because that is where it belongs.  Farah Allibhai  14:23And your parents, do you know how your parents, grandparents came from India? What purpose?  Zahir Dharamshi  14:30No it was because a lot of the immigrants who move to Uganda if you like we're from quite poor backgrounds. So this was a way of bettering themselves. And obviously when they moved to Uganda, people started opening shops and stuff because they needed shops and all the rest of it. So people... it was a chance to better themselves and move up the social ladder if you like for want of the word. Farah Allibhai  14:55Do you feel that that was the consequence of the African community.  Zahir Dharamshi  15:01I don't think so because a lot of these Asians then open shops and stuff employed African so they provided a livelihood for the Asians. And a lot of the Asians were, what's the word not entrepreneurs, but there were philanthropists, if you like, it may be in a very, very small way. But that took the Africans on and I know for a fact that some of the people provide the clothing for the kids, they were given food. They were given accommodation. So they were philanthropists, but not like Mr. Gates or anybody like that, but in a very, very small way, but they provided food, housing for people and employment as well. Farah Allibhai  15:50You spoke about matinees where they drive ins because I knew a lot of people in Uganda used to go to drive ins. Zahir Dharamshi  15:57Yes there was a drive in cinema in Kololo, I think it was. Yes, I'm sure it was in Kololo, drive in cinemas, but with the matinees, the drive ins were in the nights, basically. But the matinees were in theatres or cinema houses as we know. So that was during the day. Farah Allibhai  16:14Would they be screening, Indian films?  Zahir DharamshiAll sorts Farah AllibhaiSo Africans and Indians and Europeans would all go? Zahir Dharamshi  16:22I mean, there was Indian films, European films, African films. So it was a it was a mixed bag of films. Farah Allibhai  16:31And it does sound very idyllic and you know, going into a swamp sounds very dangerous because of crocodiles and snakes and things like that. Zahir Dharamshi  16:38The thing is, like, all children, all youngsters, I think you start fearing things or fear builds into you as you get older. I think when you're young, there is no fear as such, because I remember climbing trees. I wouldn't want to climb the tree now, right? Well, certainly not at my age, but even at the age of 20-25 I wouldn't have. So I think fear comes with age but when you're young I don't think there is much fear anyway, that's... but obviously different people are different. Farah Allibhai  17:16Was the Agha Khan school a fee paying school or was it free? Zahir Dharamshi  17:21It was fee paying school, but it was open to not only to the Ismaili or Asians but it was open to everybody. It didn't matter whether you were black, green, white, brown, whatever colour you were, you're always welcome. It was a fee paying school. But there were bursaries available. If you couldn't afford it. You could apply for a bursary. And then your fee would be paid then. Farah Allibhai  17:44With an entrance exam which is kind of like a standard way of... Zahir Dharamshi  17:49No they weren’t exams as such I mean, they sit down with people and find out.  Farah Allibhai  17:55An assessment but not an examination? Zahir Dharamshi  17:56Not an examination. Farah Allibhai  17:57Actually it was just really genuinely needs based.  Zahir DharamshiBasically. Yeah, yes.  Farah Allibhai  Based on the inclusion and that was the Aga Kha primary school. Zahir Dharamshi  18:07Primary school and secondary school.  Farah Allibhai  18:09Okay that great, thank you. And you were talking about coming to Plasterdown and things happening there. And restaurants donating food and the women cooking. How did that get organized, who facilitated all of this? Was it the ideas of the refugees themselves - let's do something? Zahir Dharamshi  18:27Yeah mean, there was, there was a committee as such because obviously we needed people from the outside if you like to oversee things because we wouldn't have known where to go to get help and stuff. So there was a committee and some of the residents in Plasterdown were part of the committee as well. Because that could offer help as to what the community in Plasterdown wanted because it was quite a big camp. So in a sense, it was like a small village if you like for want of a word, but there was an outside community of local people who facilitated things because they'd go into Plymouth and inquire about whether people wanted work, work men or work women. So they did all that as well and the residents of Plasterdown got involved as well with that, so it was not an open ended community as such, but in a sense it was because a lot of the locals used to take people home for Sunday lunches and stuff because I remember Oh, I think we got, what were the families names,  because they come to visit Cardiff as well. And Dad got on wonderfully well with them and every now and again, we'd go to their house and up until they passed away. They kept in touch with dad. There were letters back and forth. And they lived I think it was just on the outskirts of Tavistock. So there was quite a lot of interaction from the local community as well. And talking about local communities, when he first came to Cardiff on the 30th of November 1972. I remember being met at Cardiff Central Station or general station, whichever way you wanna call it by, God rest her soul she’s gone now, Aunty Mary we used to call her. And when we moved into Allen street, I never forget. There was a fire lit. There was a three piece settee , whether it was secondhand or not, was immaterial, but it was made into a welcoming home. There was some food already prepared. I remember there was a table in the kitchen and we have still got that table as part of a family heirloom if you like. And we used to call her Aunty Mary, Mary Hilliard name was, God rest her soul. She lived on Allen Street. And I think did she work with a WRVS or one of those organizations, and they helped and made us feel extremely welcomed as well. Farah Allibhai  21:29So, can you describe your early life in Wales then? Zahir Dharamshi  21:34I went to college 1972 December. I finished college on the 21st of March 1975 and 21st of March 1975 was Nowruz, we celebrate Nowruz, the Persian New Year, which Ismailis celebrate as well. I started work on the 7th of April 1975, in a company called CBSL, which was computerised business systems limited in Ely. But going back to my college days, I still got friends from college days. And as it happens, I'm meeting up with two of them with their wives on the 22nd, which is tomorrow. Phil, and Jenny they live up in Somerset. And Chris and Barbara live in Bridgend. And obviously Julia and me are here, so we'll be meeting them tomorrow. But school, was college was fun, because there were all sorts of nationalities and stuff and maybe, I was lucky was I didn’t have to go to school. So the aspect of the bullying and all the nastiness that happens in schools. I didn't have to put up with that, because I was old enough and I’d go to college. We were all a mixture in college and I went to Romney Technical College in Cardiff, which is a big school now I think it's Eastern high or whatever it is. And we all got on. I mean, I can never ever remember having any racial comments or whatever made when I was in college, but that was me. Others might have had it, but I never did. Farah Allibhai  23:21Did you find it difficult to navigate your way into college when you first arrived after having such a shocking experience? From having been in Uganda and then being in the camp and then finding that a new life needs to be built in Cardiff? Or were you really helped with that? Zahir Dharamshi  23:38Not really, I mean, I was helped, you know, Aunty Mary was there and she took us down to the education place to get bursaries and grants and all the rest of it. But I think it I suppose it's a mindset that you have. The thing was that it had been an adventure all the way down the road, in a crazy sort of way. And we had to make a new life so there was no point in going into a shell and saying, I can't do this, I can't do that. We just have to say right, it's got to be done. We got to do it and get on with it because Dad worked for British Steel. Dad started work I think it was in January of 1973. And mum started in work in a company that made baths, I can't think of the name of the company, but it might come to me. And so dad worked there until he retired. Mum worked in this company where they made baths and stuff and once they closed that place, mum worked in bakeries making cakes and stuff for companies like Marks and Spencers until mum retired. Farah Allibhai  24:55How was that for your mother if she was a housewife? Did she speak much English? Zahir Dharamshi  24:59I mean, her English wasn't very good but it wasn't very bad. I mean she had enough English to get by if you like. Farah Allibhai  And your father was a fluent speaker father was done was a fluent speaker? Zahir DharamshiDad was a fluent speaker, yeah. So Mum got by and dad obviously, I mean we all spoke English anyway. And as time went toward mum obviously picked up more and more. But college days were fun. I remember them has been fun and it was a case of you just start to bite the bullet is the term goes, and you just need to get on with it. And friendships are made, and some of my friendships have been lifelong friendships. Farah Allibhai  25:34And how would you describe your life now?   Zahir Dharamshi  25:38Well, if you compare life in Uganda, to life here, I mean, life is a lot better. I don't think anybody, all the Ugandan Asians who came to Britain said that their life there was better than the life here. It was maybe a little bit laid back and maybe a little bit easy going. But you had to have money to get education like I said earlier on. Opticians, dentist, hospital treatment. In Britain, all that is free. I mean, we pay for the National Health and everything else, fine, I think that that is acceptable. But when you need operations on your eyes, or if you need to go dental treatment, or if you need to go to the hospital and stuff you don't have to pay before you get the treatment. So I think life in a sense is a lot better in Britain than it was in Uganda, the weather has got a lot to answer for but you just get used to the weather. It is cold, it rains, you just get an anorak and get a coat and get on with it. And the other thing is that I think that it depends how you treat people. I am a firm believer that because you're immigrants and stuff, I don't think that people should expect saying I've come from this come from that and you got to do this, that and the other for me. One cannot demand respect, I think respect is got to be earned. And the other thing is that you have to treat people with respect, you have to explain to people as to what it is, who you are, where you come from, and you have to educate people by talking to people. And I think not only racism, but to a certain extent racism as well. I think it comes from people's ignorance. If you explain to people and if you assimilate with people in your simulated communities, whether you go to a choir or whatever the case may be, doing some charitable work or if you assimilate with people, people get to know you. Farah Allibhai  27:53So do you mean mix more than assimilate, because assimilate gives the connotation of becoming? Zahir Dharamshi  27:59No what I mean by assimilating is not necessarily becoming... I mean, obviously, I could never become European, unless I use Mercury salt resolve to turn my skin white. Yeah, I suppose mixing is probably a better word or whatever. But then you have to tell people who you are, what you are, what your background is. And people understand, if people don't understand, then there's gonna to be bias, there's gonna be, like you said, there's gonna be racism, there's got to be partisanism, as well, because with all nations, all countries, or whatever, you tend to find... ghettos is probably the wrong word. But people tend to congregate where they are ill car. So it becomes like separatism if you like, because if I'm an Asian, and I want to go to where most of the Asians are, and that is what happens. So I think people don't mix, people should mix, I think and I think if people mixed it be a lot better place. But that's my opinion, obviously. Farah Allibhai  29:10And so, from having gone to college and started work, I know that you've got a family of your own, and you have several children, and can you just tell us a little bit about your family, Zahir Dharamshi  29:24Right, Alim is my oldest boy, his mother is Joan. How old is Alim, Alim is about 36 I think, or something around about there. Farah Allibhai  29:33Is his mother Welsh?  Zahir DharamshiYes. Farah AllibhaiAnd where does she live? Zahir Dharamshi  29:37In Tonteg which is just on the outskirts of Cardiff. And how I met Joan whose Dad used to have a shop in Tonteg and that is how I met Joan but relationship didn't last, I wasn't married or whatever. But just one thing and another. And I got a daughter called Alicia, with Elaine she's a Welsh lady as well. Again, relationships didn't last and please don't get me wrong, I just didn’t go out spreading my seed or whatever it was just relationships just didn't last. And now I'm married to Julie been married for... she's from the West Wales from a place called New Chapel. And we've been married for 20 odd years it is. I got something here, which says, if you give me a minute, I'll give you the exact date now. Married on the 1st June 2002. Farah Allibhai  30:42So you're an honest man now?  Zahir Dharamshi  Absolutely.  Farah Allibhai  So with your father, he was working for British Steel. And I understand that British Steel closed, didn't it? And you mentioned then a shop that your father had in the valleys...  Zahir Dharamshi  30:54... of Tonteg, yeah. Which is near Pontypridd. And once he sold the shop in Tonteg, then he had another shop in Woodville Road in Cardiff. Farah Allibhai  How did he come to have the shops?  Zahir DharamshiIt was just one of those things where he wanted to do something. And the shop in Tonteg was up for sale. And we went and we looked at it. And basically that was it. And he said, well, we'll give it a try and see what happens. Farah Allibhai  31:20Was it the redundancy, mainly from British Steel that helped establish that?  Zahir Dharamshi  31:24Yes, obviously, Dad had saved his income and stuff. And the other thing was that where we lived in Allen Street, number three, Allen Street. In those days in the 70s, the council used to do mortgages. So it was a council house and it was a mortgage from the council. And I remember, dad wanted me to take him to the City Hall where the offices were. And I asked him whether he wanted me to go in with him and stuff. And I remember him telling me that it was something that he had to do personally, it was personal business he had to attend to. And I waited in the car for him. And when he come back, he had papers in his hands. And he told me, he said, son, he said the house is now ours, he said. He said the mortgages are paid for. Farah Allibhai  32:18So how did he get the mortgage on the house? Because I'm assuming that you had social housing when you first arrived.  Zahir Dharamshi  32:24Yeah but then the council, you could buy council houses in those days. And dad decided that he’d apply for a mortgage to the council, which was granted. And that is how we managed to buy the house. Farah Allibhai  32:37So you were given a greater sense of security and establishment.  Zahir Dharamshi  32:43Yeah, because I mean, everybody wants their own bricks and mortar. Like, if you look at the situation now. I mean, it is sad because some of the young generation now will never ever be able to get to the property ladder. In those days, I suppose our parents were lucky because their council mortgages and stuff and they managed to buy their own properties. And they had security because they didn't have to worry about being kicked out to the house so the landlord could come in and say, right, you got to vacate, you gotta go, you got to do this, that or the other or whatever. So it was a good thing.  Farah Allibhai  33:15And so with your youngest son Kareem, right?  Zahir Dharamshi  Amir   Farah AllibhaiAmir, sorry, he has a passion to play for Cardiff, is that right, to play Football?  Zahir Dharamshi  33:27He wants to play football for who I don't know, everybody supports Manchester United. But it's like all children have hopes and dreams to become permanent footballers. But I think it's only something like 2% ever make it to a professional level. Farah Allibhai  33:46Okay, but there is a potential that he could you have a legacy of a son who plays football Zahir Dharamshi  33:50Indeed, yeah, I mean, there is potential there. But first and foremost, I think he needs to get an education behind him. So he can fall back if he doesn't make a professional footballer. Farah Allibhai  34:04And do you think that thinking comes from your culture? As an Ismaili? Muslim, Indian?  Zahir Dharamshi  34:11Yes, because you really need education. And if you've got education, then the world becomes your oyster. Farah Allibhai  34:17So you talked about having your ashes scattered in Wales... Zahir DharamshiTo be buried, buried in Wales.  Farah AllibhaiSo how do you feel about your sense of identity and belonging to Wales? Zahir Dharamshi  34:31Been here 50 odd years, I'm a Welshman, I will never be a naturalized Welshman, obviously, because I was not born in Wales. But Cardiff is my home. Wales is my country. And it always will be. Africa is my... or Uganda... Africa, Africa is a continent obviously. Uganda is my country, but that is my spiritual home. My ancestry is Asian or Indian. I mean, obviously this is pre 1947 because that's where my grandparents moved so Pakistan didn’t exist, West Pakistan or East Pakistan as it used to be, it was just the subcontinent of India. So my heritage is Asian. My spiritual home is Africa. Like I said, I was born in Africa, might not be black, but I'm an African by birth. And Wales has been my home for the last 50 odd years. So I'm a Welshman, if you like, living in Wales, I've been here for 50 odd years, and I'm passionate about Wales as well. I think it is, it is a beautiful, beautiful country. You’ve got some wonderful places, you got some wonderful food. And like I said, it is what it is, this is my home.  Farah AllibhaiAnd the people? Zahir DharamshiThe people are wonderful. I mean, in all walks of life, in any country you meet some people who are not very nice. But I have been lucky, most of the people I have met have been absolutely wonderful. I've been able to sit down with people, have conversations about me about them about where they come from, where they go, what they do, how I do, how I don't do. And it's been... it's been a wonderful life. And it's a fabulous life, I mean, I'm glad to be alive. Glad to be able to do things, glad to see my children grow up, be able to see friends and family. And I don't think I can moan about anything. It's been hard at times, but life is hard and life is easy. Farah Allibhai  36:33It’s true and coming on to that, what does resilience mean to you and your community? Zahir Dharamshi  36:38I think the Ismaili community is extremely resilient. Because we are lucky where we have got our spiritual leader who is... people know him as His Highness, the Aga Khan. And he has instilled into us about education. And he's also said that life is not easy life, in a certain extent, is what you make of it. And you have to have education, which makes you resilient. Because if you have education, if you don't succeed in one country, there's always another country to move to. I mean, I know people who have been educated in Britain and stuff and then move to Australia, they have moved to the states they moved to Canada. So that I think is resilience as well. And not only that, it is what your mindset is, I mean, if you've got a mindset say, no, I can't do this or life is hard, and this, that and the other, I don't think it works.  Farah Allibhai  37:37And do you think that the trauma was palpable in the camp when you were there, do you have memories? It's because you were describing it as being an adventure. Zahir Dharamshi  37:47It was because we had gone through the army checkpoint and some nasty stuff. And then at the end of it, when you getting on the plane, you think, okay, I'm free from all that stuff, which has been left behind. And you said, right, next thing is... and that was the first time I ever got on a plane when we were coming to Britain. I mean, I've been lucky enough in life, been on a plane a few times since, but then we got off at Stansted Airport, so we got on at Entebbe. And the bit in Uganda was left behind there, okay, it was traumatic, it wasn’t very nice, but then you can't be living with trauma for the rest of your life. Farah Allibhai  38:27It wasn't something you felt in the camp then. Zahir Dharamshi  38:31No, no, no, I mean the camp was wonderful because I mean, one of my dear friends Mehboob Ladra, he was a dear friend. I mean he’s gone on. And we were friends in Uganda and the friendship carried on. I mean, we never got up to any mischief. But we always used to help people offload the buses and stuff when people turned up and took them to their billets if you like, for want of a better word. And it was we went to school together in Tavistock. And then obviously, people started moving, some people moved to Birmingham, Mehboob moved to Birmingham. The Allibhai family moved to Cardiff the same as we did. There was, I don't think there was many of the families from Plasterdown who moved into Cardiff to that I know of, and then there was another family. Ramesh Bharani, I don't know what camp they were in but they move to Cardiff and Ramesh again. Become a dear, dear friend, he was a Hindu I was an Ismaili, but that didn't matter. He was a dear friend and they lived in Mackintosh Place. And then Ramesh moved to London and still keep in touch and he’s still a dear friend. So bonds were made, not necessarily in a camp but bonds were made in a camp that are still going on. Bonds were made when we met people when he moved to Cardiff. Bonds were made when I went to college and Inshallah, with God's grace having the bonds will last for the rest of my days Farah Allibhai  40:10Thank you very much Zahir Dharamshi  40:11You're welcome   

Recording 2: Interview with Zahir Dharamshi on the Ismaili community in Cardiff

Sat, Jul 06, 2024 2:19PM • 10:20

SUMMARY KEYWORD: parade, moved, community, bigger, cardiff, family, years, house, smiley, cohesive, room, road, space, refugee, refugee communities, functions, prayer meditation, fourth street, japan, rose

SPEAKERS: Farah Allibhai, Zahir Dharamshi

 Farah Allibhai  00:01Farah Allibhai recording Mr. Zahir Dharamshi on the 21st of March 2024. Can I first ask you what do you recall of how the community first became Cardiff Jamat on your arrival as a refugee in 1972? Zahir Dharamshi  00:191972 Jamatkhana I can't remember exactly Jamatkhana was, but I have a funny feeling that there was a family called the Dhallas, Zulfiqar Dhalla, Moseez Dhalla, Tazeem was the niece and Gullybai was the mother she was the sister of Zulfiqar. And if my memory serves me, I think when he first came, we used to get together at their place for prayers. And I don't think it was every day I think it was every Friday at religious festivals like Chandra, Navroz. From then we moved to Sodunu bhai’s house, we had a front room. We used to have our prayers in there again that wasn't on an everyday basis. I think that was on a Friday and Giamatti festivals. Farah Allibhai  01:19How did that come into being after being in the house? Zahir Dharamshi  01:23I think because Zulfiqar I think they moved, they moved to London because Zulfiqar was a dentist and they must have come here before we did in 1972 as students, and obviously there was other students, Ismaili students in Cardiff there was Abdul Changler was one I'm sure M Allibhai was another one. Abdul Maoji was another one. Shameem, I can't think of Shameem’s second name. She was another one of the Ismaili students in Cardiff. So we moved from Llanedeyrn, I think they were living I'm sure it was Llanedeyrn and moved to Sodunu bhai’s place in Cyfarthfa Street. And as the Jamat got bigger, because people had moved from other camps and stuff and people had moved into Pontypridd, there was a family in Bridgend, Akbur bhai, Sukerbai was the wife, there was Shaqil and Frafeek were their children. So as the family got bigger the Pabani’s were up in Pontypridd where as the families got bigger in Cardiff there was, Noorly bhai had moved in, went from there to the parade, which is 28 the Parade.   Farah Allibhai  02:43Just before we go into the parade, these are refugee families, I'm assuming, and they would congregate in the  front room of this terraced house. What was the atmosphere like and the space like and the community like?  Zahir Dharamshi  02:56I mean, I think the atmosphere was wonderful because everybody got together, used to sit, chat, have a laugh. There wasn't a case of them and us whether you'd come from Uganda or Kenya or Pakistan or wherever it was, we were in this family community. And that is what we were, we were a community. We are all brothers and sisters together might have been from different parts of the world, but we believed in the same values. And that is how it was, we are a family. And from then on we moved to the parade. And Ravi Mooneeram again, is an absolutely wonderful gentleman, he used to work for the council, he was something quite high up in the council. And through his help and generosity to a certain extent, we managed to go to the parade where we had a room and used to meet every Fridays and again on festival days. We used to go in half an hour or so early up the carpets down get the parts and everything sorted. And then the Jamaats would come in. I mean, I remember being a Mookie with Amira for a good few years, and we used to go in and we used to set everything up in place. We used to go pick people up from their homes. I remember I used to go pick up a family from Ely, can't think of her name – Sakubai. I used to pick her up from Ely to bring it to Jamatkhana. So we were there for a while. And then the parade them shut down because they're talking about the shutdown. And then we moved into Claude Road with a family, Katun and what was her husband's name?  Farah AllibhaiFaruk  Zahir DharamshiFaruk. They had a room which is a fair big room which was a separate entity in their back garden so it was an isolated, no isolated is the wrong word but it wasn't part of the main building. And it was set up as a permanent Jamatkhana there, and that used to be every day then. Farah Allibhai  05:08And when was that, do you recall? Zahir Dharamshi  05:11Timescale wise? No. Because how long have you been in the Jamatkhana now in where we are now? It must have been a good... how long has mum been gone? Mum has been gone 10 odd years. So the Jamatkhana now has been there for longer than 10 years. So probably looking at the best part of 20 odd years I reckon.  Farah Allibhai  05:45In the new Mosque, in the new Jamatkhana? Zahir Dharamshi  05:49In the new Jamatkhana, we’ve probably been there 20 years, if not that long, definitely 15 odd years because... Farah Allibhai  05:56Think it is about 20 years. Because prior to that would have been at 6 Claude Road?  Zahir DharamshiAt Claude Road, yeah  Farah AllibhaiAnd would you have said that it moved there in the mid 70s?  Zahir Dharamshi  06:07At Claude Road? Farah Allibhai  06:08Do you have...? Zahir Dharamshi  06:10Probably not mid 70s because probably early 80s I would think because if Jamatkhana has been there for 20 odd years.  It’s only 2000, so if you look at the year 2000, so probably moved into Claude Road probably early 90s I'd think because we were in Claude Road for, would it have been 10 years or so. Farah Allibhai  06:37But there seems to be quite a lot of confusion. I think Claude Road was longer. I think I remember going in the 80s we still had functions at the parade we held big functions.  Zahir DharamshiThat’s right Farah AllibhaiJamatkhana on regs that was on Claude Road. And it seems from the research I've got that it established in the mid 70s. Zahir Dharamshi  06:57It wouldn’t have been the mid 70s and I’ll tell you why, because we come in 1972 and don’t forget it was at your dad's house in Cyfarthfa Street, he was there for a good while. We moved from there to the parade and we were in the parade for a fair while a good few, good few years. So if you look at mid 70s, would have still been there. I reckon we probably moved to Claude Lord, probably mid 80s. Farah Allibhai  07:26Okay. So the general consensus is that it was, it's important to have these spaces Zahir Dharamshi  07:33Absolutely because it is a permanent space of prayer, meditation. And not only that, I mean Jamatkhana again this is a personal opinion - Jamatkhana are social hubs as well. Where you can meet people, you can discuss people, not discuss it in a nasty way. But if people have got any issues, you can sit down with them and discuss what issues they've got. If they need any help with whatever the case may be, whether they need to be taken to the hospital, or they need some help in the house. So they need to be taken shopping or whatever. And all that is part of a Jamaat, as we call it, which is a congregation. But yeah. Farah Allibhai  08:17Just going back to the parade, do you feel that having had the parade was very important in the formation of our community and sustaining our community keeping it a cohesive whole? Zahir Dharamshi  08:32Yes, because the thing was, that was with the parade it was a bigger place, a bigger space, and more people could come and meet because if the places were small, some of the people would think there's no point in going to Jamatkhana because I've not got enough space to sit down or whatever. So the bigger places like the parade, and not only that with the parade, you could have functions there as well religious functions like our Khushali, Navroz, and all the different bits and pieces, Eid. And it became a cohesive place. I think that in a sense was a glue for our Jamat to turn up at the parade. And it was all there. Farah Allibhai  09:08And how much do you think that is because there was a personality, Ravi Mooneeram who was generous enough, as you mentioned before, to open up this building to be an inclusive space for refugees and migrants and people from other communities. Zahir Dharamshi  09:25I think was very important because 28 the parade, we weren't the only ones using it, there were other refugee communities we're using it as well not only Ismailis, I think the Hindus used to use it for some time until the Mandirs or temples were built. The black communities used it before the churches, the founding of churches where they could go into all the rest of it. So it was used by all immigrant communities. So in a sense, the parade was a cohesive place not only for us Ismailis, but for other communities as well. And fair play to Ravi Mooneeram I mean he helped as well, not only for the Ismaili community but for the other communities as well. And I think it was quite important in helping the Ismaili community establish a Jamatkhana in Cardiff. Farah Allibhai  10:13That's great. Thank you very much.  Zahir DharamshiYou're welcome.