Prakash Thaker was born in Kampala, 1950. The family moved around Uganda living in Entebbe, Kampala, and Kololo on ‘Kanjokya Street’. His paternal grandfather came to Uganda in 1902 on a ship, as a cook. He opened a small stall cooking for indentured workers and then a corner shop. Prakash was not allowed to leave Uganda with his family and, after a narrow escape with the Ugandan army, went to Italy as a refugee and stayed there for two years, living in Leche and Naples before settling in Christchurch, New Zealand. He came to Wales with his wife to join his brother, who was working in Port Talbot, and settled in Cardiff.

Transcript of interview with Prakash Thaker by Radha Patel

Radha: Can you please tell us about your life in Uganda?

Prakash Thaker: My father was born in Uganda.

Radha: Why did his parents come to Uganda?

Prakash Thaker: His parents, my grandfather, came to Uganda in 1902. And in those days there was a lot of poverty back in India. I mean, so you must have heard about this lot of Gujaratis they were all travellers, like kind of travellers they used to love adventures and things like that. 

So one of our – somebody, this is my grandma was telling me, that one of the guys must have said to my grandfather, do you want to come to Africa? We are all going to Africa. And my grandfather said, but I haven't got the money. So they said, oh, but you are Brahmin, so you must know how to cook. So my grandfather said, yeah, I can cook food, ok then you come and do the cooking for all of us and we won't charge you any fare. That's how my grandfather came to Africa. And he came to Mombasa, and in those days, they never used to have trains, so they had to walk so many miles to come to Kampala. And when then in Kampala, when he came to Kampala, he opened a lodge for the people to come and have a meal. And he made a few pounds or few money, few shillings and then he decided he wants to have his own business. So he bought his own shop and he started his shop and then he went back to India and he got married and my grandmother came to Africa and then all the kids came along. My father and my two aunties, and there were three brothers and sister, my father and two sisters. And my father lived in Africa. But in those days they didn't have a trucks or they didn't have a cars or anything. They used to go in a wheelbarrow to do the cash and carry sort of thing. That's what my grandmother was telling me. They said we used to have 20 people and 20 wheelbarrows, and they used to go every once a week to the wholesalers, pick up all the stuff, load it up in a wheelbarrow and come back walking, you know? So that's how the life, hard life was in those days.

Well, my childhood - I was there until I was about 13 / 14 no – 12, 12 - 13. And then, in those days, they were saying that they might get a rough time in the country. So, we went to India and I started studying in India and then when I was 16, I came back to Uganda. I didn't do - I just did first year of university in India and then I came back and then I saw that my dad was the only breadwinner and we had a big family, okay, half of my family was still living in India. All my sisters were living in India and 1…2…my two youngest brothers were with us in Uganda. 

Then I thought no, I'm not going to put a burden on my dad, so I decided not to go for study. My father was asking me to come to Britain and carry on having a career or something. But then I thought no, I'm not going to do that because I'll help my father out. So, I was about 16 / 17 and I started work. And first few years I worked in a different places like petrol stations and I was really into the office work, office work and things. And after a while, there was a - my father had a partnership in shirt factory, so my father said to me, well, we need somebody to look after the shirt factory as well. So then I moved from petrol station to the shirt factory. Of course I was working there, so I was getting salary and everything from the factory, but I was keeping an eye on it. And we had about 180 people working for us in the factory. We were making shirts and I worked until I finished – 1971, end of ‘71 I went to the, went to Italy as a refugee because I was stopped by the army person into the post office, because I just went to check my post box and this army people just got hold of me. And they wouldn’t let me go, and I thought that was my last day because I thought they were going to kill me, but somehow I don't know…he just let me go and I just came. I didn't go - I wasn't staying at home, I was staying with a friend. So I went to his house and I said to him that I want to go back home - back to Britain. So he said OK, fine. So I went back to the United Nations and I say to them, what do I do? How do I get to Britain? They say no, you can't go to Britain because I was over 21. So they said if you want to leave this country, you can go to Italy as a refugee. So I went to Italy as a refugee and I stayed there two years in Italy just doing nothing. Absolutely nothing. I used to work part time, part time in a sense that just to kill my time, I was helping the person who owned the camp. He had a farm and because I didn't know Italian language, so I had to go down to the farm and drive tractors and things like that helping him out. And he was paying me some money, sort of not employed, but just because of daily jobs sort of thing. And I spent two years in Italy and then I was, I was told by the British High Commission I was over 21, so you can't go to Britain.  And my parents were in Britain, you see? So, I didn't know what to do so then I was just waiting there for some other country to go to. Everyone they were going different places, like all the consulates used to come into the camp and have an interview and if they decide that OK, they want that person, they'll give them the visa and everything so he can go to that country. With me - I was waiting. I wasn't sure where am I going to go? I didn't want to learn another language, so after a while Australia came. Now Australia was looking for people, but I didn't want to go to Australia as well because I knew that there was a lot of colour bar in Australia. That's what I heard. So, I didn't want to go to Australia either.

So then I heard about New Zealand coming in. So I thought, oh, that's good. So I went to the interview and they took interview and they took me and they said OK, we'll pass you and you can go to New Zealand if you want. So I said, OK, tell me, why do I go to New Zealand? What New Zealand has got that can offer me better life in New Zealand? And they said different things like they don't have any poisonous animal in New Zealand, you know? He said, if you sleep on the road you’re sure that you will wake up next morning. Nothing will bite you or nothing like that. No wild animal, no poisonous animal in country. Second thing, our people are very, very friendly. And that made me interested to go to New Zealand, so I said, fine, I'm going to New Zealand. So, I decided that I'm going to New Zealand. I told my father on the phone that I'm moving, I'm moving to New Zealand. And my father said OK, so I said I'm coming through Britain, coming through Heathrow and then going to the New Zealand. So my father and mother and they came to see me on Heathrow. And then I went to New Zealand.

In New Zealand I did few different type of jobs like first when I got to New Zealand I worked in freezing works. You know what freezing works is? Abattoir - I was working in office. My job was to make sure that all those stocks and everything is right. And it was an easy job, but paperwork but very easy job. And I used to stay at one of the friend's place. I wanted to live on my own, but he wouldn't let me go. He said no, no, stay with us. And they had a fruit and vegetable shop. So he said, oh, after you finish work. Come to the shop and we'll be finishing about 5:30pm/6:00pm and then we go home together. Where we were leaving about 4-5 miles away from the shop. And I was working only just around the corner from the shop, so I used to walk down to the shop and I worked there for a while and then suddenly I found out that a few of the people who were friends in a camp, they all moved to Christchurch so I thought oh, I'm going Christchurch as well. 

So, I moved to Christchurch and then I worked in a factory for a few days. In those days , the jobs were pretty easy to come. You just give up one job now at 10 o’clock in the morning and afternoon, 2 o’clock you got another job ready or you were working at 2 o’clock. It was that sort of thing like that. So I worked for a while there, then I worked on the buses. I drove buses, so I was all right in New Zealand until 1980, but I came to Britain twice in that time.
First time when my sister was getting married and I came to her wedding and then second time I came for my second sister's wedding. When I came for my second sister's wedding, I met my wife here, so I got married to her and we - both of us - we went to New Zealand together. And on the way, we had a honeymoon in Hong Kong, and then went to New Zealand.

But then unfortunately her father passed away while we were in New Zealand - first year. So we came back in a…she only stayed there about 18 months and then we came back. When we came back, I wasn't sure whether I'm going to stay here or going to go back or what. But, because when I got my citizenship in New Zealand, they also gave me the British citizenship, not British citizenship, but it was like a…on my certificate - nationality certificate - it said the barer is a New Zealand citizen and British subject. That means British citizen subject means – so I said to my wife, I said, listen, let's say get rid of everything we got in the house. We’ll go to England, if we like we'll stay, if we don't like, we'll come back. And we came to Britain. My parents were living in Brighton, we stayed about a couple of weeks in Brighton. Then my mother said - in those days my mother and father - that a lot of people are moving to Wales. So do you want to go to Wales? And I said OK and my younger brother, he was doing his apprenticeship, not apprenticeship but you know, like they used to have it in the university, in and out sort of thing - that you study two years, one year you work again and then you do study again one year and then you get the job. So, my brother used to work in Port Talbot works, so he was here living in a bed and breakfast, and he was in trouble. He didn't have a place to live and things like that, so I said OK, I'll come to Port Talbot – Neath. We'll get a place in Neath and we'll live together. So we, that's how I came to Wales.

And I worked for about four years, 3-4 years. And then we decided, no, I don't want to work for anybody, I want to do something of my own. So I came to Cardiff, bought a shop, and I started in shop in Cardiff.  I remember when we came first time and if we don't know the way, and if you ask somebody hey where is this place, he said hold on a minute, why? I'll come and show you the way. They'll walk all the way to that place and show it to us, and they'll say, and me and my father used to say, what a people init? And they come all the way there to show you. And they come with their own car, show you, and then they go back and they say, OK, carry on now. That sort of people were when we came here.

Radha: Can you tell us more about like community life in Wales, so like how you found other Asians and what kind of things did you do as a community?

Prakash Thaker: My wife wanted to go to Norta and things like that. So we used to come here. Even when I was living in Italy - when I was living in Neath, I used to drive down to Cardiff for Norta for my wife… wanted to go and do this garba and things. But when you have got a business, you've got no time for anything.

I got a job in Marks and Spencer in 2004 and my wife passed away in 2016. And I finished Marks and Spencer 2022. So that's how...that long. After that I haven't done anything. I never used to come here either, but I used to think that a lot of political things going on here, you know? So I don't want to get involved with it. So I used to stay home and then, you know, Rameshbhai? I knew Rameshbhai well. One day I came here and we were all talking about…because I used to come on Wednesdays for a lunch break…and in lunch break one day he said to me, one of... he said my nephew passed away. And he said I got to go to London for a week, and we had some people came here some people have to lecture and things like that. And we had to open the hall every day for a whole week. So he said to me, would you look after my side of the work? And I said, yeah. And I started getting a life into, you know, and really enjoying that. So I started coming in now. So that's how that's how I started getting involved with this, this group, you know.

Radha: Do you remember the expulsion? Could you tell us a bit more about the political situation at that time and what things that you heard?

Prakash Thaker: Yeah, I can remember everything most of, most of the stuff I can remember last years, I can remember far, but I can't remember couple of days ago. That's my brain, you know?  
Okay, in 1972 - August was the…last day of August…5th. Three months prior to that. Idi Amin, he  was a dictator in Uganda, he suddenly had a dream that Ugandans, all the Ugandans, are milking your country, or no, all the Indians are milking your country. And they're not – you just look at it, all the Indians are so rich, and look at Africans. In Uganda, it used to be three different systems. White had a different way of living. Indians had a different way of living and Africans had a different way of living. If you go for a job, same job, if it's a white guy, he gets 3000 shillings a month. If it’s an Indian, he gets 1000 shillings a month. If he's African, he gets only 350 - 350 shillings OK? It used to be like that, but and Idi Amin had a dream that look at this, these people, what they are doing. So next day he came and he came on news and he said to everybody, whoever is not a citizen of this country, no, no, first he said that all the Indians, all Indians has to leave within 90 days. So, I think most of the other countries said to them that you can't kick your own citizens out. So, then he changed within a week or two, he changed his tune and he said Ugandan citizens are not supposed to leave. They can stay here if they want to. So, suddenly, Uganda citizens became a really valuable thing that, OK, he's a Ugandan citizen, he can do business and everything, so come and work for us sort of thing you see. But then the life started getting so bad because…I mean, see you can't go at night on the road, you get mugged, all that sort of jazz you see. So everybody wanted to go, and that's what it was all about. 

So if the people can, I mean - I remember, if it is correct that something like 60,000 came to Britain out of Asian community near enough to 60,000. But then out of that there was – this wasn’t you know citizens of Uganda or anybody else, only the British people who came to Britain, there were 60,000. Then, because my parents were in Britain, my definitely first choice was Britain. But, they didn't let me come; they refused my application. So, one day I remember - I was going to stay there in Uganda. I didn't want to go anywhere. So I thought I'll stay here, I had a nice house - four bedroom house and everything. I had a servant coming into the house doing all the cleaning and everything. I had a guy he used to come and do the cooking for me and everything, I was perfectly fine, there was no problem, I was happy. But then one day I went into the post office to check my post and they got hold of me. And they said to me that…they put me on against the wall and he was drunk, and I thought he's going to pull the trigger and I'll be gone, I was that close. And then, there was another car came in with a driver, African and all the Indians, and I don't know why, but he just said oi you, go. So I thought, okay. I got in my car and I just went OK. Because in East Africa we used to have a post box system. We didn't have it delivered system like in this country. So everybody used to go to the post office to check the post box, you see? So anyway, so I went home at a friend's place and I said I'm not going to stay here. I'm a citizen of this country but the life is really getting dangerous - if this is getting now like this, what will happen when all the Asians are gone? We'll be right in trouble. So he says what are you going to do?  So they were all…none of them…they had a British citizen or we were four of us we were living together in one house because we all decided to live together. They're all friends, you know, all grown-ups and things like that. So I said to them, I said I don't know. So next day I went to work. And when I was, when I went for to go and do the banking, I went into the United Nations office to find out what happens. And they said to me do you want to… do you want to get away from here? I say yeah. Have you got enough money to buy tickets? I said yeah. OK, then I tell you what you come tomorrow with your three photographs and we can give you the United Nations document which we will be able to take you to one of the camp. So I said fine. And then you buy your ticket and go with that document to Italy. OK.

So next day nobody knew I went there, got my photographs, gave it to them, got my - they called it certificate of identity. I got that and I went to the Air Airlines Office, got my ticket on airline. I still remember it was 7th of August. I was supposed to fly out. And I came back and one of my father's partner, he was Idi Amin’s nephew. And he came to the office where I was working and he said to me, you are all right, aren't you? I said, yeah. He say, OK, so do you need any more help in office or any other work or anything I can get you some stuff. So I said no, I'm fine. OK. So, he just did that and I just went and I was thinking in my own mind, on 7th of August, I'm going. I'm not going to tell anybody. So then he knew, but unfortunately I went to pick up my money from the bank or traveller’s money and they gave you, they gave us £30 per person anyway, it was £30. It wasn't much, but that's all I had. The guy who gave me that money, he knew me and he knew Kasim Ramdan as well. Kasim Ramdan was a partner in a factory. He was Idi Amin’s nephew. So that guy knew Kasim as well, so that guy told Kasim that he is going because he came to pick the money up. And I didn't know what to do then, so I couldn't go home or nothing. I didn't have clothes or nothing - came back to the factory, pick up few shirts, brand new shirts and put it in a…you know that the sample bag, they got a sample bag to show it to people. I fill that up and I went to the tailor’s because I had a couple of trousers with the tailors. I picked those two up, that's how I went to the airport. I let the 7th day go on the ticket and I went and bought another on the 5th, I bought another ticket. And I flew out as soon as I got onto the plane, I thought shhh I'm all right.

Radha: What date did you fly?

Prakash Thaker: 5th of August. I was supposed to go on 7th of August. I flew two days before because I knew that Kasim Ramdan will put the somebody onto the airport to get hold of me. Because he was a nephew, he knew everything, everybody, all the armies and everybody. So when I came to Italy on the 7th, people who came to 7th to Italy, there were some of them they came to me and said here you are! Where were you? I said why? On the 7th they were looking for you in in the airport. Were they? Yeah, I said I was lucky I just got out of the country on the 5th. That's how I left the country. 

Robin: What do you think would have happened if his nephew had got hold of you? Do you think he was looking for you?

Prakash Thaker: No, no, no, nothing much. He wouldn't have done anything, but he could have made me stay there.

Robin: Why do you think he would have wanted you to stay? 

Prakash Thaker: Somebody to run the place. We had 180 people working for us, come on. So it wasn't like a small concern, it was -  see this hall here, make it four times hall. That was, that size factory we had. You see? So he was - he needed somebody his own - whom he can trust, you see. And he thought he can trust me because I'm staying. You see, because they were all my father and they were all friends, you see? So he said, well, you are here, aren't you? And I said to him, yeah, I'm here. But then I thought, I'm not going to stay, I'm not going to face again those army people never again. So I went.

Robin: Do you know what happened to your house, your car, anything? 

Prakash Thaker: Yes, I know about my house. Well, my house means - now it's not mine. My father, it used to belong to my father. My nephew, one of my nephew, works for…remember when we had an orange telephone? He used to work for orange telephone. His job was to sell tell, time to all the different countries and things like that. And he used to go to Uganda. And I told him one day I say, you know, Kunal, his name is Kunal, I said Kunal, when you go next time to Kampala go to Kololo. And go to go and look at the 9 Kanjokya Street, see what is it like now. Take a few photographs and come back. He said all right. One of the Army Block, Army officer lives in our house – lived then,  I'm talking about 12/10/12 years.  He lived in there and he had, you know, this corrugated aluminium sheets. He had sheets from the ground right up to the whole, like the whole length of the sheets up like that all around my house, because our house was right in between 2 streets. So we had a gate from here and gate on the bottom street. So you come in from the top street, park your car in the porch, and then once you want to go back out, you go from the bottom gate and go out. So we had that sort of house. He couldn't see anything, all these big sheets, you know? But he was - he said I still got a few photographs for you. I said why? He said you know where the lock part is, where you could put the lock in? Yeah, there was a hole about that size is I put the camera in there. I had took the photograph inside. So he took - he brought me some photograph, but I don't have it. He just had it on his camera.

Radha: Can you can you tell us about the camp in Italy?

Prakash Thaker: First, when I came to Rome, they put us in big, international…it wasn’t an international hotel, but it was like a kind of 1000 rooms in that kind of a hotel. That one had 1000 rooms so everybody had one room or no, I had two, two - there were two of us in our same room. They gave us them and then they said they will decide where everybody's going to go from there. So, I only spent about two weeks there in Rome. And then two days later, 2 weeks later, they put us in a coach and they send us to Italy – South Italy, a place called Leche. 

So, we go to Leche and then we said what we're going to do now here. And they said, OK, they've got a camp in a seaside. Now, in Italy, I think, I don't know whether it's a everywhere, every time or what, I don't know but they used to have these dormitories. It was like a six dormitories, they had six or eight dormitories, and each dormitory can carry - it was big - that's sort of like halls, dormitories, you see, and then they put a 20 double bunk, double bed bunk beds in it, and they have put so many people in one room like. So I went there,  and I got a room upstairs and we all got there. And I didn't know how to spell - I didn't have any clue about Italian language so, I just spent couple of weeks there. Didn't have a clue what we're going to do here. They were paying us £2 a week pocket money. United Nations were giving us £2 week pocket money, but we were not worried about it because, you know, when I left Uganda by mistake, I had a 200 shillings in my pocket. When I go to Italy, when I was in Rome. And then in Rome, we're now taking my clothes off, I got these 200 shillings. And this guy came in and he said one of his priest is going to Uganda and he's looking for Ugandan shillings. If anybody has got it, so can we swap it? So I said, yeah, I’ve got 200 shillings. So he gave me some Italian liras, so I wasn't short of money, money wise. But I also had about £30 with me. So I wasn't… I wasn't doing… I wasn't spending any money anywhere or nothing. So that money was still there. But then they were giving us £2 every week. So we used to have our pocket money like. 

But then suddenly, one of the guy who owned this dormitory he had farms. So he said if anybody wants to come and work in a farm. So we said, yeah, OK, we'll do - two of us we went. OK, they kept on giving us different work. They were showing us what to do, and we were doing it. That's how we started in Italy without language, without sign language, just only sign language sort of thing. You know, if they say show you the glass of water and say, say Aqua, then I remember it's called Aqua. So if I need water I would say Aqua. So they don't take me to the tap, you know that sort of thing. That's how I learned Italian language. Hard, but I learned it. So, I spent what, 6-7 months in Leche. I worked in a farm and he was - the guy was very, very nice. He was very, very friendly. He was, he was - he was speaking a little bit of broken English and we could understand each other. So he used to take us to the shops and say, do you want some trousers, buy some trousers if you want, buy some shirts and in those days I used to smoke. So he used to every, and he used to give me every week he used to bring me one outer of 200 cigarettes. Here you are, this is for you for working in a farm. Plus, he was paying me money. He was really generous and I thought that was very good. I collect - I saved the money while I was working on a farm and I thought, oh, this is nice, this is alright,  I can live here for a while. But then they decided to send me to Naples. So, then I went to Naples and then I got a place in Naples. 

By that time, I knew a little bit of Italian language, broken one. So, there was a guy one day I was - we were - walking, walking in Naples on the street and his Mercedes pulled in and everybody said to me that you got to be very careful because in Italy, I heard that they pick up people from the street. So everybody say, be careful. Don't get into anywhere. Make sure you walk on a street, a well lit street and lot of people around you and all that. This Mercedes pulls in and he says, you people are Indians, I say yeah. He was a youngster. He was about two years older than me, couple of years older than me, he said would you like a job? Working for us? So first we said, oh, we don't know. I said we don't know who that guy is. He might take us in a car and then just takes us all together. We said, no, no, no, no, no, we don't want it. So they said, look, you know where you live - your camp - yeah. Our petrol station is on the top street, yeah. If you feel like it come there. So, then I thought I can trust a little bit if he has got a business there and if I can find his place. So this another guy who was with me and we both of us, we went there. And we looked at him, we said, what do you want to do? He had American - there was a NATO camp in Naples, NATO camp. All the Americans were living there. They didn't know Italian, and Italian boys used to work in a garage - they didn't know English, so they wanted somebody in between. So I say, yeah, we can do that. We can hear from the English and tell the Italians what to do and when Italian finishes, take the money and all that. So they gave me job then. So I got a job in Italy, so I was working there. I wasn't allowed to work because Italian people have got so many, had so many unemployment then that they were, they said they told the people who come somewhere in that camp they're not supposed to work, so he can't do anything. He was giving me under the pock... under the table, money and everything. So I was alright, I was staying there, stayed there about over a year, maybe more than a year. And then, then I came - I went to New Zealand.

New Zealand is the country where people were so nice and friendly. First time when I went to New Zealand – Christchurch - I went into this pub and I sat down on my own. Within 15 minutes my table was full. All the people came in. Can we come and sit here, can we come and sit here? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. And then they all were so friendly. They did ask me all detail about me, what my doing and where I come from and all these Jazz. Yeah, tonight there's a party in Membury Street, you coming? I said I don't know how does it work. He says, see that shop there? Every pub used to have a bottle shop. They used to call them bottle shop, bottle shop means you can buy your drink from there. So he said see that shop there you buy whatever you drinking from there and then you come with us. Well, let's try, see what happens. So, I never used to drink I think mostly I was the first person in New Zealand who didn't know anything about races. Didn't know anything about rugby or I never drank. Right? Because in New Zealand they say that if you know these three things, race, rugby and beer, you are in it straight, you know, and I didn't know anything. 

Alright then I became friendly with them, went to the party and became friends with loads of people. Within first couple of days, I had half a town were my friends, were that sort of people and they were all really, really friendly. But then, you only keep enough friends, very close friends who you are dealing with. Because it's OK, you go to the pub and you meet everybody that's different. Hello, hi and that's it. But you got a few friends, and then what happened was that because we were Ugandan, only 7 families in... 7-8 families in Christchurch, they all used to make sure that one weekend everybody get together. So one family, whoever has got the lady who they make the food and everything ready and we all got together, we all get take the drinks and things like that and spend until midnight there and then we go home. I mean, even when I was married, they used to come to my house. I used to go to their house and that's how it used to happen. And we knew a lot of... don't mind saying there were loads of other Indians there as well who came from India to New Zealand, but they kept it to themselves, they never let us mix with them. And I decided, OK, fine, if you don't want that way, we will have our own group. So we had our own Ugandan group sort of thing, you know? And we used to get together, we used to travel together. And then I was working on a buses, so I used - I could get the buses on a... I mean, I can get the coaches on a very staff price and I used to hire a coach and we all eight families, we’d go together somewhere all different places and that. And then those people used to get feel really bad, aren't we good enough to come with you, they said. And I said no, when we came here, you never used to take us anywhere, did you? So this is only for us, it's only - I mean it's not Indians - it's Ugandans, I used to put a label on the bus, coach ‘Ugandans’. You know, on this, on this thing and but then it that was in those days and then you were young, you used to do things what you don't do now sort of thing, but then became friendly with everybody. But New Zealand is a very, very friendly country. I don't know what is it now like, last time I was in New Zealand was in 2005. When I finished with my shop, I went to New Zealand. But I haven't been since then. And I would love to go once again, you know, just to go to Christchurch. And I used to work on the buses I used to know Christchurch on my back of my hand, you know? But then when I went again in…first time…I went in 2001…1994. And I just... so completely different. When I went to 2005, it was completely different, you know and we thought, wow, look at that this is old glass buildings and…But it's the best garden city of New Zealand – Christchurch - is the whole river goes in the town. Where I was living was my front garden and then there was a road and then a river. So in the night all the Swans and all the ducks and they used to come in my garden and sit there, was really, really nice city. And I wasn't that far from the city itself, you could walk. That close. So it was good.

Radha. I have a question. I want to go back to Uganda. So you – so you mentioned a few things, you said – you mentioned the pay differences between white people, Asians and black people. And then you also mentioned, and Ramesh uncle also mentioned that there were - some black people were like partnerships, factory owners, right? 

Prakash Thaker: They had to because of the citizenship law. If they had a citizenship - Indian - Indian citizen, Ugandan citizen / Indian then they’ll have them rather than having Africans.

Radha: OK. So can you tell us so on that, can you tell us about? More about the relationships between Indians and white people in Uganda and Indians and black people in Uganda.

Prakash Thaker: Indians and white people, if you had a business and if they come into your business that’s a different story. We never had anything to do with white people. Because unless you go to the - like we used to have Italian cars, Fiat cars, you know? So, we used to go to the Fiat company to get the car serviced and all that and that's how we used to meet these Italians and my, one of my director had a BMW, so we used to go into the BMW place and there were some white people working there on a - because they were teaching Africans how to do it, service and things like that. But that's about it, it wasn’t a very sort of very, very good relation between whites and Indians. They knew each other, right, like if my father had his boss, the big boss in a post office on the very high place was a white guy. He would know my father alright, but my father would know him as well. But nothing, nothing more than that. That's only job wise. Indians were alright with Indians. And Africans were local everything init because your servants were Africans, your workers were Africans. You got to handle them all the time and that's so… but we never used to have Africans in the wedding or things like that. No, it wasn't that close. That's how I felt - we felt. That's how I mean, so OK - I had a, I had a lady working for my house to clean the house up, and there was another lady used to do the shopping with my mother and all that. And she used to know how to make few food things and things like that. She used to cook, help my mother out in her cooking. And I used to tell my mother oh, if you want to go to England, it's alright. You go and I'll stay here and I'll keep that Maria. She'll do the food for me and everything and I'll be all right. So I won't, I won't starve. And that sort of thing used to be like that, you see? But we never used to really get getting into each other like we are getting in this country. My nephew is married to a white girl. My youngest brother is married to a white girl. My niece is married to white guy. So that's completely I mean, say completely in each other, in it? So we didn't have that sort of thing in Uganda.